are sidearms still viable

General Discussion
21

Burst mode is equivalent to MK2 in ttk. I love vp78

Rifle TTKs in comparison

Tbh m4a3 with its high single shot dmg doesnt really care so much about falloff. But the accuracy is far more important. As for just falloff you lose like 2% to 5% dps per tile to falloff (and that high end is only if falloff is calculated after armor dmg reduction, idk if it is. Either way the equation goes, vs armored targets (30 armor and above) falloff is significantly worse.) which isn’t negligible (the higher end is kinda horrible yeah). Accuracy on the other hand is so bad that missing bullets would lose you like 30% dps. Falloff overall on pistols is not so bad unless its above the ap grade of ur pistol.

Not counting m10. M10 is unusable past its effective range lol.

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22

Does the Mateba or Desert Eagle count? If so, I am a Mateba guy.

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23

M4A3 HP can kill a dude in like two maybe three shots. I love my beautiful M4A3, such a great weapon.

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24

I recently played and sidearm mod88 or even m4a3 really HURTs those T1 xenos more than you think. with AP they even do solid damage against Tier 2 xenos and are always a decent resort to reloading in any conflict. I NEVER USE THEM unless I am medic but definitely viable.

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25

The CM devs were assassinated long ago and replaced by Siege Camp developers who like the logistical side of the combat operations more than having any actual fun in combat

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26

You meant morrow?

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27

Re: M4A3 AP, It’s not even worth using M4A3 AP because M4A3 HP is basically M4A3 AP but better

The base damage of HP is so high that the damage after being reduced by armour is still higher than or equal to AP in pretty much every case.

Note: Assuming 300 RPM because no one is clicking at 600 RPM, 4 tile engagement range

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Re: VP78, the VP78 is literally a pocket AP MK2 and has the same TTK (on burst fire anyways, MK2 burst AP = 110 DPS , same as VP78 burst). Treat it as MK2 with 20-round AP magazines instead, because that’s basically what it is. Extremely decent, 45 DMG with 30 AP + no falloff due to effective range = 6

Comparing its 30 AP to the Mod88’s 40 AP is irrelevant because only 5-10% of combat will be against castes like higher than 30 armour. (Which are: Defenders, Charger (FRONT), Hedgehog (+ BONE SHARD) and the King.)

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In addition, as you can see: The Mod88 is not ‘the’ anti-armour specialist, in fact the VP78 fulfils that exact same role but slightly better in some ways. I’d wager they’re roughly similar, the Mod88 feels better handling-wise, the VP78 wins in terms of raw DPS. Note that all stats assume an engagement range of 4 tiles, so the Mod88 does WORSE compared to the VP78 the further out you go.

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It’s a good gun, and I don’t know why you put it so far below the M44 when the M44 is notorious for being extremely unwieldy. You do note that the M44 requires landing your shots very well, but considering the average marine will miss over 50% of their shots, I think that caveat is so huge that it may as well negate the damage advantage it offers.

STATS VP78 M44 MARK M44 REG
DMG 45 55 72
AP 30 0 5
ROF 144 120 120
EFF RNG 6 0 0
FALLOFF 5 0 1

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The M44 only outcompetes the VP78 DPS-wise on a small array of xenos- Drones, hivelords and carriers are mostly irrelevant because you’re not going to see them much, which kind of just leaves the sentinel, spitter, and all runners and lurkers. (and even then, a raw 26 DPS advantage at best on unarmoured targets.)

Add on the 7 round cap on the m44 and you have to contend with frequent reloads which add a solid second or two to every time (the average marine misses over 50% of their shots), plus the VP78 has the advantage of burst fire tracking- Now even the sole saving grace of better raw DPS is fading (since combining all these factors, you’re probably going to hit roughly the same actual DPS)

Re: OP
Overall, yeah sidearms deal comparable damage to primary weapons in pure DPS, but the small ammo capacity is a huge bummer. You COULD run sidearms as primaries (run akimbo for extra style points) and frag, but that’s like the same as taking a burst MK2 and snapping every mag in half while cutting off 10% of your damage.

At that point, take a rifle- Sidearms are meant to be sidearms, not primaries.

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28

Wait a fucking second this shit is a 1 month necro how the fuck did I get baited into posting a book for this

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29

It lets me see this post so I can see some dogshit takes(like VP being bad/inaccurate)

Other than that I think one thing no one has mentioned here is how that pistol belt fits on both suit slot and belt slot and has enough mag space for the pistol, which lets players really cram that in most peoples loadout really well. You rarely ever use them but when they do theyre amazing. A pistol belt on suit slot, mk2 on back, ammo belt, flare pouch, mag pouch, and web/suitslot with utilities/medical supplies is such a decent all rounder standard marine build. Most people will go for shotgun, but I’ll be honest, a competent marine with m4a3 HP is scarier than one with a shotgun. As a xeno, I can be aware and be cautious and play safe against shotgun marines, m4a3 marines, they have range and I actually have to disengage if they hit those shots, and possibly die.

Shotguns are overrated, theyre not scary to competent runners/lurkers. They were good when dual shotties were meta, but any competent runner/lurker will rarely die to it because they know to pounce and run away after 2-3 slashes and repeat.

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30

This is a pretty fair point. Though honestly, the main use case for shotguns for me is just to stun for combos, rather than be a dedicated anti-backliner weapon.

I don’t think M4A3 can replace the shotgun in it’s intended niche, since despite the shotgun being nerfed into oblivion over the years it’s still the only ‘free’ stun tool available (HEDP too expensive). I think the use case that highlights this the most is the shotgun stun PB being so good against warriors, since you can stun them and then move to block their exit, allowing for consecutive PBs or teammates to pour in and follow up (which may or may not happen.)

E.g. I don’t think the kill would’ve been really secure here without an M37, given the warrior could’ve conceivably just instantly ran out and broke LoS either via. the north or east exit- The M4A3’s TTK is low, but not low enough to kill it in time I think.

The utility of stuns is still significant enough to justify an M37 in many loadouts for this reason, imo. But yeah, I think in a dedicated anti-runner/lurker role, the M4A3 is certainly superior.

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31

m37 pairs incredibly well with m4a3. m4a3 pairs well with any burst dmg or stun option. This can include if teammates have a stun or burst option too.

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32

Ain’t reading that shit, you necroposter.

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33

YOU HYPOCRITE!!! IM METATARGETING YOU

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34

No more bica+kelo+tram+peri+splint for you then.

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35

Unsurprisingly, a lot of people seem to think they actually can click that fast. Top 5-10% non-botting clickers, from the data I’ve been able to find here and there online, is ~8-9 clicks per second and not sustainable for very long.

Nobody is doing 600 RPM without an autoclicker or olympic click training, especially when you’re actually playing the game and not focused on just clicking as fast as possible.

Unfortunately, this isn’t realistic - VP78 burst isn’t as accurate as MK2 burst. It’s a better choice only at absolute point blank over the regular semi-auto mode, and the problem at that range is xenos actually dodge shots more easily and most of your ideal targets (rav for example) eviscerate you that close - it’s a net washout in real gameplay.

Much worse than that. Average hit rate for average players is consistently ~20%; marines miss 80% of their shots. Extremely good players reach ~40% hit rate average.

Overall, in terms of what’s actually effective and works:

  1. M10 (post buff)
  2. Mod88
  3. M4A3/Type73
  4. VP78
  5. Smartpistol
  6. Everything else (can’t say much on mateba, but aside from the stun it looks abysmal)

VP78 suffers from too much inaccuracy - burst especially is bad, but there’s also a huge variance due to the players’ own inaccuracy with too long of a fire delay between shots making it inconsistent and unreliable; Smartpistol likewise suffers from too much inaccuracy past about 3 tiles (and/or too small of a magazine). They are not bad per se, but they are also not good. M4A3/Type73 are on the same level as the VP78/Smartpistol where they are ~ok~, but unlike the VP78/Smartpistol, are actually good in their niche, which bumps them up.

M10 is surprisingly very nice - not because of the damage but because of the consistency and sustain, which are two things the mod88 also has going for it (and my former #1). It’s a big psychological thing. A warrior player doesn’t think twice lining up a grab on a VP78 user even if it takes a couple hits first. Same situation with an M10 and that constant stream of bullets just sends a pressure signal that makes players back off, and the sustain and consistency makes it useful against runners/lurkers even at point blank when they’re dodging around you.

For that reason I see the M10 as the first and only currently viable pistol. It’s the first one that manages to do its job while still being distinctly a sidearm and not a primary and it does this through sustain, hit consistency, and pressure instead of outright damage.

The VP78 is a high skill floor weapon, difficult to use it well - and the reward for meeting that high skill floor is “its a worse M41”; not worth it. Genuinely just take a second a.grip M41/M4RA instead.

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36

Not if I get you first.

37

StarCraft II

As a fast-paced RTS game, StarCraft II requires high APM from professionals to manage their economy and command units simultaneously.

Metric APM EAPM CPS (equivalent)
Average Pro 250–350 ~140–200 4–6 actions/sec (APM) 2–3 effective actions/sec (EAPM)
undefined -— -— -—
During Intense Battles 400+ Varies greatly 7+ actions/sec (APM)
undefined -— -— -—
Peak APM Peaks over 1,000 have been observed, though not sustainable. Varies greatly Up to 17 actions/sec, but this includes a large amount of spam.
undefined -— -— -—

Dota 2

In Dota 2, APM is highly dependent on the player’s hero and role. Efficient and meaningful actions are valued over high-volume clicking.

Metric APM CPS (equivalent)
Average Pro 150–300+ 2.5–5+ actions/sec
undefined -— -—
High APM (Micro Heroes) 200+ (for heroes like Chen or Meepo) 3.3+ actions/sec
undefined -— -—
Low APM (Supports) ~150 (for heroes like Crystal Maiden or Vengeful Spirit) ~2.5 actions/sec
undefined -— -—

So with that, I doubt normal cm player can reach 300 rpm. Unless they are pro players of some competitive games.

Note on EAPM:

EAPM, or Effective Actions Per Minute, is a more refined metric than a player’s raw APM. It filters out “spam” or redundant actions and only counts meaningful inputs that directly impact the game state. This gives a more accurate representation of a player’s true efficiency and strategic skill.

How EAPM differs from APM

Effective Actions Per Minute (EAPM) Actions Per Minute (APM)
Actions counted Only meaningful, unique actions. For example, giving a unit a move order or casting a spell. Every single input, including repeated and unnecessary actions. This includes spam-clicking the same spot.
undefined -— -—
Purpose To measure a player’s actual in-game efficiency and speed of thought. It reflects how quickly a player can make strategic decisions. To measure a player’s overall input speed and dexterity. It’s a measure of raw physical speed, not necessarily effectiveness.
undefined -— -—
Typical value Always lower than a player’s raw APM, since it’s a subset of all actions. Higher than EAPM, as it includes all clicks and keypresses.
undefined -— -—
Significance A better indicator of high-level skill and game knowledge. Top players often have a higher ratio of EAPM to APM, showing less wasted energy. Can be misleading because it can be inflated by “spamming” actions to warm up or appear more active.
undefined -— -—

And you can test your cps with clickpersecond.com, I don’t know if it contain bots or not, don’t quote me.

38

I don’t think dota and starcraft are a good comparison since we are talking about spamming LMB and not using the whole keyboard too. Even if we talk about APM which includes spamclicks, it’s not just mashing a mouse button, right?

Everybody post their click stats. We got a new metric apart from hours to dunk on each other. 7.5 clicks a second btw, 450 rpm ( send me strobclicker.exe I am too slow)

39

10 cps is very possible and doable - theres lots of techniques to get ur cps high like butterfly clicking, jitterclicking, and even dragclicking with getts to like 100cps. But 10 evenly spaced cps is really unlikely and difficult.

I posted a video earlier. Its very accurate. Its worth using because its just an ap mk2 equivalent. Calling a gun not worth learning is meaningless when its effective because once u learn it u know it. Its a good sidearm choice and significantly better then m88

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40

VP is a good sidearm and made by our lord and savior, Weyland Yutani. Put it on burst fire mode and you’ll be surprised.

M4A3 with holopoints is good but good luck getting more ammo.

Smartpistol is good but sucks with ammo economy.

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