Backlining kinda sucks

General Discussion
1

As title says, backlining kinda blows now. And I need to put this into words somewhere.

What even is backlining
Backlining is when xenoes goes behind the marine forces and fight marines outside of the front. You could even say “Back behind the line”. And its very simple to the point where we have 3 castes that almost seem designed for it. We have the runner with no plasma use and high mobility to be anywhere, the lurker who is both fast and invisable, able to solo marines, and the burrower for any kind of support said backlining castes need.

How was backlining before?
As mentioned with each respective castes, they just did what they were designed to. Runner skirmishing with marines everywhere, lurkers picking them off in solo combat, and burrowers burrowing. You could rack a good impact as any of these castes, be it destroying infrastructure (Comms, Power, APCs, Lights, etc.), killing/capping loners, and just generally depleting marine numbers through good positioning and waiting for the right time.

Why does it suck now?
Well, first off, you don’t really get any impact anymore. If you kill someone in the backline, about 4 SOs will broadcast this and make about 5-6 marines go and help them. Same with killing of power or comms. Unless the entire hive is there, there is not much you actually can do except make comms go out for about 5 minutes(if even).

And thats not touching on the whole metashift towards light armor, or no armor at all. Instead of being able to reliably predict where a marine will move, you now have to just click and prey that you hit, and that they didn’t move 3 tiles in the span of you lounging at them. This is especially apparent with IOs now, where every one of them use NVGs as well, leading to the surprise attack castes being surprise attacked constantly.

And now why its getting even worse
The main backlining caste, The lurker, is getting a “Pounce Rework”, which is mostly just a nerf to the invis timer with negliable buffs. It entirely does not even factor in why lurkers are in such a bad spot already, and very ignorantly wants to make it even harder for those who still play it. Especially with the qoute:
“adds skill expression to lurker / opens more opportunities to punish them for missing pounce ( while also allowing them more room to outplay without cloak )”

Which is spoken like you only play against said caste, instead of as it.

Is any of what I said true?
Well, the past is debateable. Most remember it with people like BOO spearheading lurkers as the new big bad thing. But how it sucks now is very easy to test out. Just go xeno, go runner/lurker, and try to have a game impact. And if you want some extra difficulty, do it on highpop. See if you can get a single perma.

There might be some prime guys like GOD, NVY, GRUG or similar out there who still make it work, but I am both amazed and terrified by how they are doing what they do.

16 Likes
2

Just work with team even if you re a backliner and you’ll get results

3 Likes
3

Impossible. Backliners can’t even get a shover or touch grass properly, and you demand human interaction and communication from them? Are you stupid?

5 Likes
4

GOD MENTIONED RAAAAAAH

But its partially true what you are saying, with changes to FOB having turrets, generally marines being more aware and also lurker being currently very weak in a group fight (still most of the time winning 1v1s) it takes a big shift in perspective, and playstyle

You mainly need to be adaptive, there is alot more “bullshit” around then previously, there are more NVs then ever, marines get more info then ever, and with how much maps are played you cant expect kills to be perms alot of the time.

If you want to have impact alone as a lurker, you need to get solid picks over the length of a game, and just generally be a thorn in the backline, you cannot cap alone, nearly impossible with tackles and way to risky, so you fight IOs, distract engineers, break comms etc. and just focus on grinding them down. There are oppertunities opening everywhere, if you know where to look, marines running back to FOB, random medics etc.

The real impact comes from having someone with you, backlining with a drone/carrier for caps, another good runner or lurker can decimate if you are skilled, and force the marines to split FOB resources or frontline resources in order to rebuild comms, collect bodies etc.

Playing the backline effectively as both marine and xeno takes a huge amount of both map and game knowledge, you need to be aware of a shitload of different things and have the skills to back up your work.

As for the rework i actually liked the TM of it, one of the major weaknesses of lurk being sustained combat and the pounces changes fixes that, other then it just dont miss your pounce, its not perfect and not the way i would have done it, but still arguably better then current lurk, also there was some juicy tech i wont spoil before i get to abuse it.

6 Likes
5

This right here, is what I have so much against the PR. The sole fact that you are punished even more for simply missing your pounce just seems malicious at this point. Same with “Duh, don’t miss your PB. Otherwise you break your hand” being as malicious, with the same intent of “punishing” missing more.

This is also the ONLY caste that is punished by missing its ability, other than arguably warrior, while its already rough to play.

And I get the boons of runner pounce, and I felt it work, it just dosn’t feel right when you have something that undoubtedly just punishes you more for playing the game.

And for how much more bullshit there is. The fact that this has become a common occurance is kinda miserable.

And I also forgot to mention how one player (the scout), can and will just deny any backlining at all, since there is no counter play to getting stunlocked while on fire.

6 Likes
6

backlining is absolutely absurd and can actually end an entire marine offensive if it’s done well what the fuck are you talking about

xenos are faster, can be everywhere and have perfect vision, along with vents, tunnels, cloaking, weed healing, everything is in their favour for backlining???

8 Likes
7

I mean, alot of the reason why the shotty gets to be so strong is because its major downside is that you absolutely need to hit that PB, especially with buck only and attachments built for quick pulling out and PBing instantly.

There is alot of bullshit, and just being good at lurk sometimes means knowing when NOT to pick a fight, that IO in the weeds, both has NVs and a superior positioning, you want to be fight those that DONT want to fight you.

As for the lurker changes… yes? Xenos are supposed to be strong 1v1, and i dont massively love the changes to the invis shit sure, but getting to actually 1vX again is kinda worth it, but i like i said above its now how i would have handled the changes.

My personal changes would be something along the lines of having it closer to runners, like the PB,

  • remove the crippling strike so you cant double slash but make the pounce deal significant damage (about equal to current double slashing) on a hit with invis.
    Less stun time but should still be around enough to paincrit a marine with light as it does currently, idk the slash total but its like 2 more after the pounce? there abouts.

  • Give it Headbite, straight copy it

  • Either make the tailstab give you a speedbost and evasion on hit, or give the non invis pounce a small stun like the TM does

  • There is also a decent thought about making the slashes quicker, but lower damage, lurker has the lowest slash cooldown i think of all castes, so caps are near impossible with how someone will walk away from them, but then again cooperation works for caps so im not hugely sold on it.

2 Likes
8

.>sos that call out deaths in backline

i have gold xo
This never happens
And even if this happens, nobody listens anyway
non issue
Your anti backline guy is one ty williamson fire warrior killing everyone with a flamer by himself (and hes winning)

cope post by op. shame!

14 Likes
9

Thats a great hypothytical acording to just seeing stats and whatever. But in practice it just dosn’t work out. Vents have been essentially removed from the game, and the only places left are solaris. But even if every map had them, then most of them would be absolutely wrecked by the amount of explosions in the game.

Had this happen about 7 times the last 3 games, so either you suck at calling out, or you say it in the worst way possible.

And can’t you say the exact same for the invis pounce? If you miss, you need to wait 7 seconds to be able to try again, and in that time the guy can either light you up or run away. Punishment upon that just makes it feel bad to play.

2 Likes
10

@Erawh You make some very good and thought out points.

11

Pounce capping solo should never be an intended gameplay feature, and lurker already has some of the best capping potential of any caste. The stun is the most consistently best single target stun in the game (which really shows how powerful it is when paired with teammates). The main downside of lurker (in the context of groupfights) is that it isn’t that great at dmging on its own against pressure because it has low sustain and moderate dps. It makes up for it with its main strength which is insane cc, speed, survivability (if making few vital mistakes against good or numerous opponents).

Lurker + acid runner is probably the second most effective capping method in the entire game (if using only 2 xenos) especially if you find a spot you can drag enemy from group safely
(queen + acid runner being the most)

Teamwork works for everything and that can be as simple as syncing up when your rouny teammate wants to go out (altho its still a bad and scary matchup ye, but it is kinda rare)

I don’t like in-kit auto combos. Just sounds like removing depth of the caste and not really necessary. (jk i love simple xenos like acid runner now that i think about it)

plus this sounds like, instant dmg after pounce which is really annoying since they can just run away after dmging and tailstab or w/e which would be op af and probably be almost instant frac even 1 v group, not that crippling slash can’t be used that way to some degree. Even then vlurker had to get nerfed because it got its combo off too safely - this sounds like exactly what vlurker did.

Lurkers strong enough to not need this but honestly not a bad idea because its really fun, headbite is very strong tho so maybe it’d need nerfs if put on base lurker because noone wants instakilled from the shadows headbited and run away

This sounds really annoying unless tankiness is traded off for it because of how many situations it will make you able to survive since speed is the most powerful stat and evasion is the most annoying stat. Speed + evasion is multiplying survivability not just by li ke a 20% evasion boost or w/e but the 500% effective hp boost of speed if u think about it.

Honestly a good point. Skill floor being raised is not good in and of itself, but having extra counterplay is. It makes the matchup more fun for the opponent than just getting pounced if 1v1 and lessens the advantage of good monitors vs invisible enemies which is a huge plus for me.

But is it fun to play get m37d after making a skill error when you pounced into a group of 10 people in a 1 wide tunnel with a blue fire sentry and maybe get frags solo with noone else to hype you up about it? no thats why team is so important because it gives you the power you need to fight multiple people and scary positions and have fun

1 Like
12

image
image739×177 16.5 KB

pounce cap heaven on kutjevo

4 Likes
13

if i ever saw a cope post, this is the one, can’t make great results at the back line as a solo xeno? Just as the other said get another xeno, 2 runners ,1 runner 1 lurker, 2 lurkers and they can bring results with deaths/caps.

The IO vs Lurker was seriously a skill issue in the lurker part, that is not common it is much more common to the IO to get backlined and perma in a random place in the colony, the IO just reversed pounced the lurker, they already knew about the lurker then hide themselves and got ready to kill, if it was the otherway around the Lurker would have pounce and killed the IO easily

Scout can deny a solo backline, yep but the moment there is 2 runners or 2 lurkers it is over for the scout, they can’t target 2 of them and the moment they get pounced it is joever, they are killed or capped.

3 Likes
14

In terms of scout, I recently played a round as carrier, and was chilling around the backline with another carrier. The scout, seeing two poor defenseless carriers, decloaked and set me on fire, and attempted to magdump and kill me. In response I just dodged and ran and the other carrier rushed him, and we got a free scout cap.

As for backlining in general, the goal doesn’t need to be caps and permas. What you’re doing in the backline is making the marines make a choice, either divert forces away from the fight to deal with your shenanigans, or let you roam wild. Destroy comms and force the marines to garrison and defend it. Kill marines and force them to divert resources to recover them.

5 Likes
15

This is some DMT level type a shitpost

3 Likes
16

Valid points.

Counter point: PB machine go brr

1 Like
17

Been playing a lot of lurker recently and I think it’s in a pretty good place. I agree with you on some of these points but I think a lot of the things you pointed out are just a reaction to back lining. If the same strategies have stopped working, then it’s time to adapt new ones, and eventually the marine player base will move to counter these as well. A meta has the capacity to change, but it requires new strategies and playstyles to challenge the norm first.

That being said, I agree completely with you on the lurker PR: if it passes it’s going to completely butcher the caste. Absolute dog water changes. My only advice to the author of that PR is that they close it. Trying to sugar coat the nerfs with some meaningless de-cloaked pounce buffs just de-specializes a highly specialized caste. It would turn the caste from one that’s very good at one thing to a caste that’s not very good at anything.

2 Likes
18

I’m sorry but I feel like this thread is soaked in cope.

Lurker easily has one of the deadliest skill sets in the entire game that feels really unfair even in 2v1 situations. Don’t even get me started on fractures. I’m straight up addicted to the sound of bones snapping. Landing just a single ability can either outright kill a marine or send them on a 15 minute vacation to Almayer surgery. On top of that, lurker has access to the most unemployed tactics imaginable (which I shamelessly abuse) like hiding in corpses to stun marines who accidentally grab you or just hitting shift+R mid fight to become completely invincible to the average blind marine.

There’s not much unavoidable bullshit that can happen to you. You just have to be super aware of a few things like slugs, scout, anti-pounce armor, flamethrowers, IOs with NVGs, and spotters. Even when you pounce on three people, you MAY still land full combo, make marines FF each other and escape when your 7s pounce is off cooldown.

Few days ago I played as lurker three of us ravaged the entire backline, denying marine push, permaing and capping several of them and forcing a full retreat back to FOB. It genially made me feel very dirty. And just the other day I decapped two HMs in a row. Lurker’s stun is so long you get four free d20 rolls and it’s disgusting.

Recommend by 9/10 sadists

5 Likes
19

As an acid runner main that’s started playing lurker and base runner a bit more with multi-z, I agree with a lot of the points but at the same time I don’t think backlining is in that bad of a place at the moment.

The thing of bodies getting reported and marines going to retrieve them definitely happens. It’s not guaranteed though, sometimes you get a kill and they just perma. The fun thing though is waiting near the body and attacking whoever goes to recover it. It depends how many marines show up but you’d be surprised by how often 1 or 2 marines try to recover a body by themselves. If you have any other backliners to group up with then you can fight off even bigger groups and rack up more kills and potentially caps. I’ve had some very fun rounds where as a group of runners/lurkers we ambush some group, then end up wiping the group that comes to recover them, and then wipe the NEXT group that comes to recover them, and eventually the entire marine force ends up having to pull back to deal with us.

There’s definitely some bullshit you can die to, but it’s mainly just scout, and it hasn’t felt as bad to me since the burst fire nerf (although it’s possible every scout I’ve played against since then has just sucked).

I think the tough thing is that even though grouping up as a backliner can be really strong, there’s not always others to even group up with, and it can be quite hard to coordinate well due to the nature of backlining involving a lot of moving around the map. Also in my experience groups of runners don’t work that well compared to groups of lurkers or mixes of runners/lurkers. Like if 2-3 runners try to take on a group of marines they’re so squishy that even with numbers one of them is likely to get killed, especially if marines focus fire on one of them. Runner is specialized for 1v1s or hit and runs and that doesn’t really work with groups of runners.
The reason runner works so well when paired with lurker is because they can capitalize so well off lurker’s pounce stun. So a backliner group wants to be made up of mainly lurkers with at least one runner paired with them. And as fun as grouping is, it’s not something that can or will happen every round.

This all said, I do think it would be cool if there was more for backliners to do like more things to sabotage besides comms that feel like they have impact, but I imagine marines would hate having even more objectives to defend. The other thing that sucks about runner and lurker is that you just don’t really get to do anything during fob sieges except if you’re an acid runner and have some acid already stored up. But that goes for most castes in the game besides T3s. Sieges just kind of suck in general.

2 Likes
20

Yeah and its alsoe alot harder to cap with tunnling with a cap being removed, like seriously why was this done? Its made backline sent all but useless on its own without a mini hive