Can we remove the FOB turrets?

General Discussion
41

The extremely engaging and fun activity of walking alongside cades to scare off one runner who is probing it once every few minutes. Nobody ever wanted to do fucking patrols, or check perimeter defenses. Many years ago it was common for NOBODY to watch t-comms flank on Big Red, because it was boring. Might as well mention how exciting it was to guard caps in hive when nest escape was still a thing.

Forcing sentinel into a job to guard caps from escaping isn’t making sentinels “more interesting” caste. It is even more boring. Having something to do doesn’t equal not being bored. Bravo won’t become less boring only because you force them to fend off lurkers and runners from probing every unguarded cade.

I don’t see much difference between (for example) 2022 and today’s FoB gameplay. Yeah, you have turrets that often doesn’t even cover places where it is best to cade for FoB. Yeah, sure, you have more types of cades, the difference being HP and ressistance to different damage types.

FoB interaction “depth” of backline is xenos freely probing every single cade, losing nothing but a bit of health if caught in the act, or melting entire cadelines just because there were no suckers in bravo willing to perform the mind-nubbing task of patroling cadelines.

They complained about guarding caps and guess what? It got removed. Rightfully so. Guarding cades is just as boring, even more I would argue.

Because xenos have about 20 minutes to make their defences without anyone, but few survs who usually only sit in their holdout, to oppose them. I would also argue that Queen’s temporary maturity is sort of a handholding turrent equivalent. Those turrets aren’t there for entire round, they depower after some time, ya know?

If marines cadehug and you complain about siege slop, It is your problem.

Exactly. People play a game and they don’t want to engage with boring stuff in said game. PLAYERS BAD!

We introduce a system that lets people evolve into other castes from drone, so they aren’t forced into drone evolutions, which incentivised people to go drone, build defences and then change their caste. Doesn’t solve the problem completly, but makes it slightly less of an issue. Should we go this way, or should we just shame players for avoiding boring stuff?

Oh boy, I can’t just wait to meet a person who after whole day at work turns on CM to play a bravo PFC walking around in circles in FoB to check every single damned cade for Prime Runner SC4T and Elder Lurker F0CK trying to break them every once in a while when he is not around. He doesn’t? FUCKING DESERVES TO LOSE!

6 Likes
42

I keep falling asleep on the job, sry

1 Like
43

Do you feel old yet Roman?

1 Like
44

There’s a difference between forcing an entire CASTE to babysit hive, on a faction with exponentially less players overall, vs. forcing a squad to babysit FOB. If you don’t wanna babysit cades, then don’t roll bravo there’s 3 other squads you can choose from. But some people do enjoy that, they enjoy building and defending, RPing inside the fob and being passive with the occassional bit of action. It’s the medium between groundside combat and shipside roleplay, if you don’t like it you can either roll another squad for pure combat or shipside for pure RP

1 Like
45

depends on perspective. Forcing more players to do the boring babysitting is pretty bad.

I imagine it’s not a problem on high-pop but when whole bravo on wake up is SG, Spec, SL and random pvt what do we do? Force others who rolled different squads to join Bravo and sit on FoB?

1 Like
46

We make the SG take engi pamphlet and build it all themselves because they deserve nothing nice.

There will be no doors in or out. Au revoir, marines!

Play Uno with me :slight_smile: CMSS13 is an Uno and minesweeper simulator

5 Likes
47

SL, FTL, SG, Specialist, Comtech, even Corpsman. All the limited roles can roll for Bravo without intending to. What should these people do when they roll Bravo?

48

In practice only the SL is bound to FOB plus there’s a social expectation that some CTs stay and at least one medic. But you can ignore it if you wish. Bravo would adapt. Bravo always adapts. Also, there are actually quite a few people who either main Bravo or don’t mind being in it for an odd round here and there. To the point that Bravo sometimes soft-mutinies when command tells it to do anything other than FOB and it goes FOB anyway.

2 Likes
49

Like sg said, most of those roles are by default just expected to go off to front.

Labeo does have a point though, but it’s more of a lowpop problem, and players found ways to adapt to it for years before turrets were added. If it is such a crutch then maybe nerf them and leave em only for lowpop, or if a certain number of commtechs don’t spawn. Or hell just have a bit of fob precaded before drop like the lz on the new map is.

But what yall are forgettng is the turrets are not meant to be a substitution for building or protecting a fob, they were a band aid fix for t3s rushing new var. The game never had them for years, and I don’t think they’re serving their intended goal anymore, at least not enough to outweigh all the other intended roles that have been snuffed due to their addition

1 Like
50

they usually get sent in the frontlines. SG, spec most of the time.

Not sending them in the front would be actual grief

2 Likes
51

Three people have replied to me saying “just leave FOB”.

I was replying to the concept that “just don’t roll Bravo” is stupid, you can only influence what squad you roll to an extent. You shouldn’t have to be left without comms (I know you can take a radio key, but sometimes this means you’re using one of your slots that could be used elsewhere), an SL tracker (or FTL tracker onto a Corpsman) and without squad messages and often a dedicated SO watching your ass because you RNG rolled into Bravo.

ASS ironically solves this by moving non-FOB roles off of FOB, and maybe the ultimate effect of ASS will be that above a certain population in whichever “squad” is on LZ there are no turrets.

1 Like
52

I’m not saying I am entitled to win, or the marines.
But there have been rounds where the xenos have dominated a few rounds in a row with masteful execution.
I appreciate the skill level of the xeno player levels, but I’d still wager that getting skillfully 30 seconds pounced by a lurker is frustrating and boring for anyone involved.
The same way getting a frame-perfect PB to the chest is for a lurker, or calling CAS, or calling mortars, or the OT nades.

The issue is very simple, Having 60 out of 80 players losing every round for a few hours is one of the reasons why low pop doesn’t get more players.
It is not about the strategy or tactics of the marines, steam rolling is also not fun for the people steam rolling.
Marines need more players to play and usually are more than 70% of the population of a given round, if marines are steam rolled that’s 50 people getting their rounds ruined without a chance of winning.

And that was the trend before the FOB turrets.
That why why most of the rounds wouldn’t get players until a round with 80 people finished, then 40 or 60 people would hop on.

Losing is fun until you get repeat rounds where all you do is lose because of things that are outside your control, hell that is why people hate CAS so much.

—————————

I have played as a CIC player a few hundreds of times over the last ten years, if there are less than 40 marines at any given game you should just consider skipping to the hijack, and that is what most rounds are. No matter what strategy you use, no matter what you do, this game simply isn’t balanced around less than 100 people. If xenos have a 1:2 or a 1:1.5 ratio they will win and it won’t even be close, no matter how many sergeant specialists you have.

And mind you, that was when marines could build barricades without engineering training, so now you have like four people in a 80 people round who have the skill to build cades, But yes, yes. Bravo abandoning FOB to do LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE because they can’t help is THEIR FAULT, and their skill issue.

Marines don’t build the FOB up because they don’t like building the FOB. It is totally not because sometimes ComTechs are not geared for that, or ready for sitting in the FOB. Because I play ComTech and that happened to me a few times, I had no metal or tools because I was planning to help my squad using the deployables(which got nerfed several times due to outcry from xeno players.) and KABLAM I’m supposed to radio in for supplies to build the FOB up and I’m about to lose my entire round, why? Because I’m the only people who can build cades. And with no CT’s you also get no mats.

The only way to win that was to play the most boring and safe way that everyone hated playing, building a megaFOB. Else the queen would rush the LZ and at XX:40 there would be a hijack after the front wipes, and it happened for a few weeks before the turrets got introduced. And yeah, that’s totally a skill issue isn’t it?

No matter how much command comunicates, no matter how much marines try to frag. No matter the skill of said marines. It’s an environment issue.

Rolling CIC before the turrets on anything lower than 100 players was always guranteed to be a xeno minor at the very least.
I’ve been to Carson ops, I’ve been to Cross ops, I’ve been to Dafoe Ops. I’ve seen at least a dozen of strategies, and I’ve seen enough to say that a marine win on lowpop is about a 20% chance.

Of course it’s been five or six years since I mained CIC and played this for actual extended periods of time. I’ve been pretty busy. But those were my experiences before the turrets.

At least the turrets make it so that the rounds last about one hour so you don’t have to play 6 rounds that are 40 minutes long and are about xenos absolutely curbstomping the marines, instead you have three 1 hour rounds where that happens.

Yes, I am extremely salty, and there are massive errors in cohesion in my text, yes I should have re-read it. But I don’t think marines take blame for those issues.

Note 1: Boiler trappers, the most soul crushing xeno caste was added due to the megafob strategy and made it somewhat defunct, because a random boiler can melt lines upon lines of cades, and marines don’t get infinite metal, but xenos get infinite plasma. And shortly after warriors got introduced, because trapper boilers being rushed was apparently unacceptable, because that’s the only thing marines could do to counter it.

Note 2: Killing a defender/ravager on low pop where you got one medic and like two buddies it also totally a skill issue, because you haven’t bought 8000 milions of ap mags that are the only thing that doesn’t deal like 5 damage to any of the two and need sustained fire from at least five people to take down or make retreat. YES, TOTALLY A SKILL ISSUE.

Note 3: The tower that got nerfed, and I’m still salty about was the tesla coil with the yellow upgrade, that slowed xenos and broke their armor. I used to set them up by the FOB or front and have ravagers push into them and get melted by the rest of the marines, now they only lower armor by a number and don’t slow as hard anymore. But yes, of course that’s also a skill issue, anything but the meta powergamer loadout is not good enough.

Note 4: I remember when flechettes were nerfed so severely that they couldn’t even hurt defender anymore, yeah that’s also very much so a Skill issue.

Note 5: I also remember when the m4ra had IFF scopes and since it has the better disponibility of AP people were using it, but having more people firing at the xenos without risking a perma is aparently not very good. That’s a me skill issue, yes.

Note 6: Now they’re coming for my boy the VP 78 because it ‘deals too much damage’ after nerfing the xm-88 a few years back. EVERY TOOL that breaks ap and isn’t the m41a is being actively nerfed every time I log into the game after a few months of a break. But that is also a skill issue.

Note 7: The m2c lost its slow rounds because it was deemed too strong. And those notes are only the examples I absolutely loved to play, they took skill, they needed a lot of thought to be put into it, but still they got nerfed and removed from the game. Why? Because all that it takes is a skilled player to fucking ruin the balance of the game. But no, that would also be a skill issue on my part. I can’t be too good or have too much fun playing. I can’t punish people for making dumb moves. I can’t enjoy my heavy guns that are a hassle to use and get lost on the first stun. No no.

Note 8: Queen screech was added to counter my favorite tactic, the marine murderball. we used to be able to just stack up on low pop rounds and rush the queen, because that was the only way to actually win, otherwise xenos would win on the atrition, we would run out of ammo and supply points, not to say men and players. When we retreated to the fob the queen would just rush with the hive, fully recovered because that’s the xeno mechanic and they would wipe out the entire marine force. Yes, it’s totally a strategy issue.

Actual unrelated note: People like to shit on me because I am an unga, but if you don’t push into the hive and risk getting capped it’s a fucking xeno major. I got called out because I push in alone, but that’s the only way to secure kills and save people, but oh well, that’s LRP because you’re not losing like you’re supposed marine main. You’re not getting absolutely curbstomped by xenos like the canon, nevermind that marines have gear that makes them a even match for xenos plus co-ordination. No no, you are supposed to lose. And If you push you’re low roleplay because you’re not typing in the middle of the battlefield just to get snatched by a warrior and thrown 30 meters north where no marine will ever recover you because people are too afraid.

And then there are the people who outright refuse to revive you because your nickname ‘undead’ makes people think that you killed yourself on purpose and are just an unga, and if they revive you you will just kill yourself and not do anything for the round.

So people don’t want to FUCKING passive, because that is what wins the games for the xenos.

People don’t care if you have an entire lore for your character, if you have their traits noted down, if you have some things written down on their story.

It’s not about fragging. It’s about not throwing the fucking game. Thank you.

Thank you for reading so far.
If you want to dispute my experiences, you are more than welcome to share yours.

3 Likes
53

Bro low pop doesn’t get enough players because it’s low pop. If it had enough players it wouldn’t be low pop.

5 Likes
54

Indeed. But it used to be somewhat more fun. And every thing that happens in it is what happens in the actual high pop rounds exacerbated. That was why the tank got locked away behind 150 players and then 200 players.

Anything that is observed in low pop will happen in high pop, just to a minor degree.

In low pop the front will get wiped by two warriors because marines don’t push.
In high pop one squad or half a squad will, then the other three will push in to try and recover them.

55

Low population doesn’t get more players because it’s 2am for me and I can’t be assed to start up my botnet when I’m sleeping

5 Likes
56

to be fair, if I see 80 pop, I am not joining that round

2 Likes
57

Entire squad is about 1/4 of entire groundside marine playerbase pre-ASS. This versus one caste, realisticaly looking at about 3 people on high pop from xenos being forced to do it. If you don’t want to babysit caps, then don’t pick sentinel as your caste, there are 3 other castes you can choose from. But some people do enjoy that, they enjoy guarding caps, RPing inside hive and being passive with the occasional bit of action. It’s the medium between groundside combat and shipside roleplay, if you don’t like it, you can either pick another caste, or evolve for pure TDM.

Same arguments about being forced to do boring stuff apply. But for some reason one was removed and veryone cheers, other is still in the game and people not enjoying it are accused for being at fault. Both nest guarding and “patroling the perimeter” are boring, I am not advocating to bring nest escape back, neither I am advocating to somehow remove FoB maintenance, but I can’t stand idly reading how players avoiding objectively boring stuff get blamed for not enjoying it. You could RP just as good as sentinel guarding caps, but nobody throws that argument around for some reason.

2 Likes
58

Honestly, I would be down to remove FOB turrets and any other rules regarding fob rushing. Right now, playing as Bravo or any fob-oriented job is pretty boring. Xenos cannot touch you at all. Fob duty should be as hazardous as the frontline and maybe we will see more people playing bravo.

My most memorable moment pre-fob turrets was when I was playing as the alamo dropship pilot and a runner tried to solo cap me shortly after first drop. I honestly think that type of shenanigans makes the game interesting.

2 Likes
59

Before the FOB turrets we had a lockdown on the computer untill XX:40, sometimes the queen or hive would just camp outside and create a distraction in let’s say hydro(WAR used to make hydro hives) and then xenos would just flank the FOB, breach it and take the ship upside.

Marines would either be caught off guard or have to rush back to the LZ. This was most of the reason why the MEGAFOB strategy thing was so popular back then.

Plus it’s kind of hard and arbitrary to write up rules on a FOB siege.
It’s in a few ways similar to the rules we had about queen not rushing survs which ended up in survs rushing the hive and which ended up with what we currently have.

60

The fob rework would make it so that I don’t have to worry about being metarushed in the LZ every round because the xenos have to take the transformer down.
And in that case I would be more than happy to throw the space turrets in the trash.

They are awfully strong. I don’t think marines should be given the chance to extend its life support not even if it costs 5k cargo points, those are just too strong and in the right hands would cause a curbstomp against the xenos.

Having xenos have to take down the transformer would make marines able to evacuate and not get totally wiped because the queen took the DS and won’t let them leave.
Which is, you know, kind of unfair.

Plus no cading would make bravo actually usefull?
They’re actually running security and are not tied down to watch the fob.
They don’t have to stare at a lurker and a runner for 50 minutes that barely gets away because of the lack of lights on the colony.
And if the marines chase the lurker or runner they will just get capped immediately because of the guranteed tackle.

The FOB rework is an idea that makes bravo actually have the security job and security detail.
And if bravo actually has a role that isn’t playing uno in FOB, roleplaying very lightly because most people go AWOL and to the frontline…
I think that’s a good change for the game and considerably more fun.

I should add my actual reasons for saying this: I think bravo is my favorite squad to overwatch but it usually gets fucked up because of people going AWOL.

  • Need someone to take supplies to the front? Bravo.
  • Need someone to rescue marines that died? Bravo.
  • Need someone to reinforce a retreat? Bravo.
  • Do you want to keep comms up? Bravo.
  • Queen rushing the LZ? Bravo.
  • Need a flanking manouver? Bravo(or charlie).

Bravo has so much more of a role that fits the S of Security in ASS, but always gets a job that is sitting around afk for 40 minutes because…

————————- >>> points at the sign

nothing ever happens.

And people get mad that bravo is somewhat hated, it’s not the fault of any SL, ASL or command player. But the environment and game design.

Even when the xenos had access to the fob the rounds where I remember playing bravo and actually getting pushed by them were rounds where we got immediately wiped. And those were like 3 out of 40 or so rounds.

Sorry it took me this long to respond, I didn’t see your post earlier.

2 Likes