Genuinly, what is your opinion on Multi-z Solaris/Big Red?

General Discussion
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Personally, i feel like it played a bit better before, i dont dislike the multi-z mechanic fundamentaly (maps should be made around it IMO, and it needs some fixes) but i just feel like it hurt Solaris in alot of ways.

To begin with the maps wasnt built around multi-z, the big open spaces between the colony can make for oppressive sightlines, pushing up/down from any place is awkward, and some quirks and holds are just too strong.

CAS/OBs and mortar will only hit a single zlevel, so you get this awkward phaze were a coordinated push needs to happen at one floor, while below it is nuked, or a counter is too easy because of a stair placement (looking at you lambda entrence hold).

It just feels like alot of the time games turn into this slop generator were marines have to just suicide rush a choke, because any use of munitions is easily avoided, and marines too discoordinated to handle a complicated multi staged push.

I get that multi-z is currently being tested, but does Solaris really need to be the guinea pig to be tested on.

IMO it would be preferable with a dedicated multi-z level, built around its strengths, the almayer surprisingly does a pretty great job of this, the very minor “sightlines” you get looking into req, hangar etc. all makes sense and makes for a quick dodge away if targeted above you, with the hallways being a defined and safe space where you arent getting shot from a story above.

Currently the biggest opinion i hear ingame/on the discord is general disapointment with the map, goes for both sides, but that might just be a large negative voice taking over. What are you genuine opinions on the map, should it remain multi-z? Does it need a rework, or should it just go back to how it was?

  • BR is good as is, keep the multi-z
  • BR could use a multi-z rework
  • Remove the multi-z changes, revert to previous
0 voters
2 Likes
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I don’t mind multi-z but Solaris was the best lowpop map, and now feels worse to play because of the addition. This sucks since LV, NV, and Shiva’s are some of the worst maps in the lowpop rotation and could have been improved by the addition of multi-z on them instead

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I like classic big red without multiz because.

Im not averse to it having multiple z levels i just think multiple implementation can’t be an arbitrary thing. And it’s hard enough to try and make a workable map with 1 level so multiple is that but exponential because it’s not just 2 levels but also how they work together.

Probably the best parts right now are the flank north caves to lambda (many a good marine and xeno wasted themselves there) and engineering just before ETA. Everything else feels a little rough, particularly the doom funnel between med and dorms.

Also what saren said. I used to enjoy putting on Vegas desert mirage alt rock pop music and it’s lost a little of the desert charm being more “““urban”””"

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I think Multi-Z has major potential and is arguably the future of the game, but there needs to be a major effort to figure out what styles work for it. It adds more dynamic movement to the game even if it isn’t currently where it needs to be yet. Believe me I get why people are annoyed with it at times, but I think ultimately it just needs more time to cook. I have had some really good multi-Z fights here and there, but currently it is a little too lopsided for one side or the other in most areas.

If they focused more on adding fewer, but more fleshed-out and balanced multi-Z areas, I think they might have more success but I dunno. As it stands now, I feel like most of the multi-Z hallways on solaris are essentially just death traps for marines right now. I don’t think I’ve ever seen marines have a good time on the second floor of admin lol, just a lot of caps, perma kills, and suffering.

Last thing I’ll say is it might even make more sense to focus less on multi-Z level combat with ledges and overhangs and focus on making them more distinct and larger areas that serve as potential powerful flanking routes or holds. For example: xenos want to meta-hive the lambda locks, marines know its a deathtrap to push that. What if instead of the millions of second floor halls on top of buildings, there was a large underground cavern sub-level that has a large exit east of lambda labs or something. That means if xenos all in on the chokepoint and wont move, they risk a massive flank from underground on their weak side or something. Multi-Z areas should serve more purpose, not just exist to exist.

7 Likes
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awesome map and guy who mapped multi z big red is a sexy beast

3 Likes
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It provides me more escape routes and potential harassment points in the backline as acid runner, what more could I ask for? (Literally nothing I only play acid runner and nothing else.)

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First thing: There should be some clue on every single tile on lower LZ that you can be seen from above. Could be achieved by very subtle atmospheric effect, like the sligthest most non-intrusive specs of dust on BR. Just an UI icon if where you are standing is not enough.

Second thing: Z-Levels are too good on the defensive. No idea how to fix it.

Thrid things: Z-levels shouldn’t be just smaller cramped buildings. Roof Z-level should be flat and almost completly empty, with only few hard objects for cover. “Undergrounds” Z-levels should be like 1 tile corridors and stuff, to replicate that vietnam era tunnels. This would make Z-levels an unique environment unlike they are now.

3 Likes
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I wish there was a map vote to play single z solaris and multiz. I honestly like both but sometimes I feel like playing single z like before.

6 Likes
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I really, really like the overlook of east side upper admin, but couldnt tell you why id ever go in there, Xenos rarely stall outside bar anymore. I think the bridges are really good harassing options both sides are able to utilize, just don’t. I think I like most of marshals, but marines never push from the north. I also like the main gate area into caves. North LZ feels mostly the same as pre-Z, but the south LZ hurts the fobbit bones still.

I like very specific parts personally, but I don’t see Xeno or marines utilizing the options

4 Likes
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I have to heavily second this. At least for the first part. The whole point of low-pop map rotation is for, well… there are less people playing, and so the maps should be proportionate to that. The second floor’s increase the size of the map by 1/3 give or take. And beyond that, it significantly increases the map’s complexity. This favours xenos, who can ambush and reposition much more quickly, while marines have to deal with additional logistical issues, lack of defendable positions, that sort of thing. I don’t even really care if a map is favouring a side, but in this iteration it just feels not fun.

I’d really like Solaris to be removed from the low-pop map rotation, or better yet, the original non multi-z version added back just for low-pop. My vote on the poll is: none of the above, remove multi-z for low-pop only.

As for the second part of your comment, I don’t think other maps should have multi-z. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not a multi-z hater, I think with the necessary PR’s and development it can cook. But these maps were not made with multi-z in mind. I think it would be better to build a multi-z map from the ground up, such that the mapper map’s the map with the multiple multi-z levels in mind, rather then just adding them to pre-existing maps.

That is all k ty bye

4 Likes
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having navalis in rotation again would be nice, it is lowpop map made for multiz … but again there are many ways to implement multiz, so saying how it “should” be done is a bit crazy as every map made by steel uses it in different way. And BR is work in progress.

4 Likes
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IDK why you think Almayer utilizes multiz any good. Like ok, let’s imagine hangar midlevel is not aids and ignore all the bugs with hangar. There are a lot of basically random holes between z-levels on Almayer. Like in medbay and engi.

4 Likes
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thats the part i do like about it though, midlevel is all maints and shit, but none of the levels make for abusive holds or give sightlines like BR which are hard as shit to see if you dont constantly press the look up prompt or already know it.

It works really well aesthetically and like in lore, and the map is supposed to be a place where you cannot get a solid hold as marine side, with it being multi-z and cade changes holding pumps for 20 minutes isnt effective anymore, instead now mainly marines gather at hangar and actually dynamically fight, instead of FOB hold 2.0.

Personally i think its an improvement on hijack in every way, i enjoy it significantly more for both sides, roaming as marine in a larger space, and for xenos as you dont have to face a boring hold again.

1 Like
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I don’t like random holes!!

Memorizing floor tiles in order to be able to play the game efficiently is not a good system, especially since a large amount of the game is pushing into areas with unknowns and quickly solving how to conquer it. The game really needs better indicators other then literally being on a tile without a roof.

A good fix that doesn’t ruin the aesthetics would just be a toggleable tile overlay which indicates height. While a button is pressed down, tiles have like a green indicator or something if they dont have stuff above, and when the button is released, the indicators disappear. It’s much more immersion breaking to have a system without this, then to have a system with it.

And/Or, just let people walk around looking at the roof and see diagonals from distance. This may be more complicated but is more immersive. Like for example:

image

Pink marine should b able to see above the roof on the right, but not the one on the left

1 Like
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Big Red was built with insane schizophrenic mapping theory in mind.

I had an opportunity to view an ancient design doc about it a long time ago. It was the most Adderall-driven manifesto I’ve ever read for something in this game

I think the 2nd zlevel right now kind of ignores that original game design effort. Although it isn’t abhorrently designed, and I see really good ideas in places, it’s just not as thoughtful as I think it could be.

If given the opportunity I’d like to give my own version of it a go, w/ hopes they’d testmerge it, but as work’s already been put in on the current version I doubt they’d allow that – I def understand, it’d be an insult to the creator who HAS worked hard on this.

As such I’ll just modify the existing one I think, once it gets merged. Till then I’ll work on my own map.

Also below is a great guide for anyone interested in mapping:

1 Like
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I would die happy if we had a chance to TM one of my three Multiz maps.

13 Likes
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Honestly, I’m personally not a fan of Multi-Z in general. In my opinion it’s a lot of trouble for what is, at least at the moment, just another buff for marines given any one xeno hive will have so few ranged castes and their ranged damage output is laughable by comparison. Just gives them a free vantage point to shoot at xenos from and the only option is to run to a part of the map that doesn’t have it.

That’s what Solaris is; big corridors for marines to fire down on the xenos from that gives little option to the xenos besides running to ETA or Lambda. Before, you could at least try a hold in Filtration, Bar, or even Marshal’s if you felt spicy. Now it’s a small skirmish around the hospital and then fall back to the caves nearly every time without fail.

If you want me to be really blunt…Solaris has kind of joined Shiva’s as a “Go shipside role or just skip this round” map for me, it doesn’t feel fun to play on with Multi-Z as it’s one of those maps that really doesn’t feel like it benefits from the new system; but then I think any map that would benefit would have to be a new one that takes Multi-Z into account, not an old one that feels like the system was basically just pasted on haphazardly in the hopes it would work.

3 Likes
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I think people cope about it is fucking hilarious.

As a concept, I do think it’s an interesting theory. I have seen Marines and Xenos use it in interesting ways, which have been catastrophic to either side on occasion. I do think that due to Solaris being the only multi-z map, people have a disconnect because they don’t have to factor in multi-z in other maps. I do think a lot of Xenos mains probably will never really like it because they can’t really trivialize it, but I would like to see a world where more Xeno abilities has slightly more interaction with multi-z. More ability to do more cool shit is what will likely sell hardline nay-sayers with it.

1 Like
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my bad for not pressing the tiny look up button in the corner of my screen every 2 seconds :victory_hand::rofl:

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I now present to you the most classic of arguments:

Y u lone?

1 Like