Multi-Z Integration

So, this is what I have, and what my ideas so far are regarding actually developing Multi-Z forward. I’ve included some notes about the testing done in regards to functionality and have attempted to address what issues were discovered gameplay wise while Nivrak is handling the bug aspects.

You can comment here or directly comment on the document with your Git login, but I’m hoping to hear feedback in regards to things I might be overlooking going forward, but the goal is to make this much much more playable.

What I DON’T want is opinions, personal feelings, general shit flinging, or comments directed towards the contributors. If you are considering cluttering this thread up with half-baked nonsense or just want to complain about something, don’t, or I will have you thrown in a woodchipper.

Also, don’t go after Nivrak or Bobby directly with shit unless you want to eat a devban. I’m happy to forward useful information.

Thanks.

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how will this interlink with your defense update?

Will the objectives be placed onto multiple layers that marines will have to defend, or will you have everything be generally on the same z level?

Likewise, do you have any plans to update marines defense against the new multi-layers, with defense in its current state?

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Generally, Multi-Z will allow us to spread objectives over multiple layers in interesting ways, that all boils down into map design. As for the defense rework, the only important overlap is that Multi-Z features be limited around the LZs as to not conflict or complicate how the defense structures work, and that barricade spam is reduced to a point.

A lot of people came out initially and said that “Marines will need more metal now since they have so many more angles they need to defend with cades”, but in testing, this wasn’t really a problem in the actual front, because Marines themselves were able to use the ledges and vantages themselves as soft-obstacles, that basically acted how cades do, without being hard blockages to motion.

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All I’ll say, is that while I’ve not been awake to observe the tests, I get the feeling that this is a good concept to keep working on, and if it is allowed to be completed I believe it will be a net positive for the game experience.


Long term, I suspect the main issue will be actually converting maps towards using multi-z, furthermore I suspect some maps would be harder to convert than others.

However one thing I can already see, every single new z-level you add to a map is almost equilivant to creating a entirely new map, even if the general layout is pre-established by the preceding z-level.

(Now we need to simulate multi-z trees on 624 and then let marines burn them down to flush xenos out of the tree tops)

Personally, I’d be interested in one-day converting my Oil Rig map to be multi-z.

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Indeed, this is likely what will take the most development power in the project, but I think Bobby was able to put together the first draft of the Solaris Ridge version in like 2 or so weeks, can’t speak for exactly how difficult that was, but this whole project iteration came together fairly quickly, and in very good quality too.

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This all opens up so many amazing scenarios. I can’t wait!

And yeah, as Steel said each z level must be hellish to make. I can’t even imagine the effort it’d take to get Hybrisa z-levelled, given it’s supposed to be an urban environment. Are you guys going to cap the number of z levels at a certain point (to prevent delay, etc.), or is an extensive vertical component to maps like Hybrisa planned?

Furthermore, would the Almayer be converted to Multi-Z too? Currently it’s heavily size constrained by just having 2 ships slapped together on the same map. I wonder if say, we’d finally be able to see the largely-inaccessible ASRS and cyro storage (though not really interact with it).

I really do wonder how the tacmap will be affected by this. Will it only show the ground level? Or are you planning to add vertical functionality to that as well?

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This is sort of up in the air. As for performance, we haven’t reached the upper limit with the Solaris version, and that’s with 4. I’m sure we could go higher, but then you get into the territory of whether or not its serving a purpose gameplay wise. I think the wisest thing to do map wise is to focus on having everything centered around a ground level, and then have a layer under and a layer above, and then rooftops of that.

Yes, Nanu wants this done IIRC to simplify the big splayed out map we currently have with magic stairs. Ideally you would be able to blow holes in the floor on the upper deck and expose the lower deck beneath, extremely awesome potential.

Nivrak did add compatability for Tac-map in the last test, although it was a bit janky. It just added a button on the tgui to move up/down layers.

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Conceptually fantastic - realistically more ladder/stair hell? Also not having look down/up default bound to realistically accessible key combos/bindings instead of “verbs” is crazy. Will explosions remain 2d or will they go 3d?

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We all figured this would be an issue, but in reality there’s plenty of cases where stairs and ladders can be circumvented entirely, and that’s majorly what happened. Ladder/stair hell only happens to you if you let it.

I don’t know what you mean by this but you can hotkey it yourself.

Large explosions (Fire support) will need to be 3-D to a degree, grenades and such, probably not.

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Yeah, that will be a lot of work.
Also because Multi z requires diffrent mapping rules then 1z lv. Chokes n stuff work out very diffrent as example.
So even experinced mappers for CM will likly have some trouble at first getting used to it.
BUT.
Multi-z is incredibly fun to map.
So i dont think it will be too bad.

Only actual problem i see is Hybrisa, and thats only because it kinda just got finished up. And will have to be redone because of multi-z anyway.
Poor Zenith.

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Since Multi-Z has become such a big talking point once again then my memory did serve well. We used to have a PR for a almost Multi-Z Almayer known as USS Western Eye.

What about reviving this project and improving it, possibly bringing it back as a MultiZ maps ship?

Edit: as i saw the latest comment that was pointed out.
Didnt notice that, but the concept i liked and i used to play when it was tested. What about using something similar as a base?

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Called the western eye, didnt point west………….

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Okay there are two things that admittedly seem to be relatively infeasible to a small thinker such as myself, but I wanted to hear about the possibility of. I know like, wyci and all that, but just like, would it even be technically do-able?

First, would it be possible to have multi-z visibility going upwards and not just downwards? I know having entirely overlayed views would fuck with visual clarity, particularly with anyone who has some kinda x-ray sight, but like, maybe just for the edges of roofs to see if any xenos/marines are camping waiting for unsuspecting enemies (like that one clip of the IO getting insta-tossed off big red roof?).

And second, any possibility of shooting downwards from higher levels, with maybe a reduced accuracy or something? Again prob fucky with the way projectile pathing works, but the idea of posting up on a rooftop gunning down a killzone is peak colonial marine soul.

Tyvm! Oh and merge that M249 HPR sprite fuck the haters and lore nerds you know it to be true in your heart.

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Read the hackmd.

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Damn real as fuck for that lol

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Are there talks about using multi-z to revamp caves either through adding multiple levels or removing them entirely for alternative hive setups? i.e sewers for Prospera?

effectively how heavily are existing maps planned to be reworked with the added systems? is the desire for something on par with the TM big red changes to be done for all of our currents maps? some?

also i just want to tack on the end here how fucking cool this is. i’ve been waiting for this for 7 years and it makes me unfathomably happy that someone has finally undertaken it. massive fucking appreciation to you and all of the devs working on this, the dropship project, vtol, queen rework. so much cool shit being done right now, making my nerdy ass exceedingly excited to play this game in a way i haven’t been since 2022

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Adding onto the above. Any plans for making tunnels part of a Z level, so its no longer just teleporting? Like full on vietcong tunnels.

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idk if downwards elevation works for caves, during testing i realised that so much was cut off due to how it had to work, you couldnt make holes in the walls for any major cave entrance as it would just lead to a sea of infinite walls, downwards elevation should be saved for areas designed for it such as basements or so, not very fun pushing fob though when one of the major routes to get there isnt there anymore

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That’s something management will need to decide on based on future testing with better implementation. As far as the roadmap goes, we want some degree of Multi-Z on every map.

I think Drathek and I spoke about it at some point, it’s on the table, not planned however.

Those were areas deliberately cut off, as the map used in tested was unfinished, so we had to obstruct the unfinished areas.

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