Ramblings on Multi-z and its knock on effects .

I have been not been playing because of this little thing called life, just don’t got the time right now. So i could be a bit out of the loop. So bare with me if get some thing wrong.

NOW ON TO THE MEAT OF THE MATTER!

First off what is Multi-z… No really what the hell is it!? Because at first glance it may seem like some kind of 3D being added… But in truth its just stacking 2D planes over top each other like some kind of horrid cake.

My tone may seem like i hate Multi-Z but i in truth quite like it. But the fact is that Multi-Z is inherently wonky and can’t and will likely never become akin to true 3D. STILL that doesn’t mean it doesn’t add value to the game.

Issue is that because of its inherent wonkiness it also causes a problems, but thankfully they are getting hammered out bit by bit slowly.

ON TO ITS KNOCK ON EFFECTS!

One of the rather neat effects that Multi-Z is changeing the way the game flows. Fact is its rather hard to get past a built up defensive line on a 2D plane, this goes both for xenos and marines. But add in more slices of 2D planes the more and more ground needs to be covered to make a fully enclosed defensive line.

This in effect makes the dreaded barricade hugging a much less of a issue, as there are many more paths to take at any given time meaning that you don’t just got to throw your self at line until you die or break pass.

NOW if you have been following my ramblings you would know that i really don’t like the FOB rework now this Discussion is not about it but i can’t help but bring it up because of the relevancy to this matter.

The fact one of the key things the FOB rework wanted to deal with was the issue of both FOB sieges and excessive amount of defensive game play. Something that Multi-Z accomplishes much better. ( Hence why i am even bring up the rework.)

Multi-Z is able to do this because of the fact changeing Z levels to bypass defensive lines while very much a valid strategy its not without its risks. Moving to level to level always takes time unless you are taking the stairs. Yes you can just jump if you are on higher level but that is going to leave you stunned.

Also add in the fact non- ground level Z-levels tend to have many more choke points and narrow paths that slow movements of large number players. Top all that off with the risk of pushing friendly’s down into a death trap on many paths slowing every thing down even more.

This in effects means that if you fail a large scale attack from non-ground level Z the risks of being wiped out are much greater. After all its kind of hard to flee if are all scrambling to get back up the wall all while running into each other.

What’s more Multi-z doesn’t just detract from the ether sides able to conduct on the field Defensive but can also add to it… of course only if its done right and does come with a bit of risk. There are many spots one can take overwatch from a upper level and shoot down from, with little risk of FF! BUT the same issue of slow movement happens meaning that while having a gaggle of lads up on roof can add a great deal of IFF DPS it also leaves the roof marines at risk of being swarmed by xenos and killed or dragged off before your fellows on the ground can even take note or get up in time.

THE POINT I AM TRYING TO GET AT

Is that Multi-z changes the flow of the game to be much more multifaceted by allowing greater freedom of movement while balancing the risk and return. This in my view point is much better way to go about dealing with the issues of defensive game play. Now i will get off my soap box and get back purely to Multi-z.

LETS TALK ABOUT THE EFFECTS ON STRATEGY!

(disclaimer i haven’t really played command rolls on Multi-z maps as the don’t like taking up the rolls on maps i don’t know that well, as well as the fact that many of the command and control tools have yet to be fully integrated for Multi-z. Still doesn’t mean i can’t note my observations as grunt.)

That out of the way lets have a chat… Multi-z is…well it has a bit of a issue of compounding the issue that is herding the cats known as marines. This as said above is partly a issue of integrated that can and will be fix at some point.

Still Multi-z can and will cause a multitude of issues, this is because of the limits on movement that upper and lower Z-levels tend to have add in the fact that there is large incentive to stay on upper level due to the benefits of shooting down from above.

This causes many marines to want to stay and keep the high ground. Of course this is with good cause to do… BUT sometime there is simply not any paths forward from the upper levels mean that you just have to climb down and move by the ground level.

This means that maps with Multi-z especially ones with good overwatch spots cause the marines to fragment more then normal. AND if you know anything about the game than you know that fragmentation of marines can and will lead to being wiped out bit by bit. Fact is xenos are better at getting around the map and better at communicating, If that group on the roof gets swarmed by a gaggle of lurks they are going to have a bad time.

As such i have noted that its extra imported for CIC to call out contacts as the pig necked marines rather not be looking up all the time mean that ground level forces tend to not even notice the roof marines being torn apart… half the time reason they will even try to look up is if some lad choices to jump from the roof to save themselves from dying/getting capped up there.

Any amount of overwatch is always payed in the blood of tens of shins and ankles being busted…

LETS TALK ABOUT KEEPING COHESION

Multi-z really does not help cohesion of course for the above reasons but also the fact that finding your way around becomes much harder. If you break off of your Squad for what ever reason finding your way back can be rather hard.

finding the right path to get back can be time consuming even if you know the map well. double so if your Squad lead is not on the front line. This in effect means that if every time a squad change Z-levels it becomes harder to keep cohesion.

This is in part due to just how some maps are made not having many good paths up or down the Z-levels. as well as issues of sightlines be rather bad from looking up from ground level meaning even trying to find sight of the squad is hard. add in the fact that marines are pig necked looking up is a risky move if you are alone.

Top it all off with the fact that you have to go slow and snaking on many non-ground Z- levels due to narrow paths and choke points means that you are going to be forming less of large mass and more of a long conga line that can cause greater likelihood of fragmentation happening.

This doesn’t mean you can’t keep cohesion but if keep changeing Z-Level to often it becomes harder and harder until you hold for long enough to regroup.

LETS TALK ABOUT HARDPOINTS.

If you don’t know what mean when i say Hardpoint i will explain in brief. Hardpoints are just my way of saying defensive fortifications that are not permeable. For marines this means a fully built line of wired barricades lacking any gaps in it that can seal off a path and require ether a long bypass or breaking a gap.

Now Hardpoints on Multi-z are a bit strange they can be built but tend to be much simpler to bypass while also being much harder to built in full. This is of course because you have to account for the upper Z-levels on the maps (also the lower but the lower tend to be much simpler to seal off.)

But that does not remove the value of trying as Non-Ground Z-levels again like i said tend to be harder to move around and come at greater risk to flank from. If you can seal off the main ground level paths it will forces the xenos to take the more risker path to you.

This means you can predict and control the xenos movement by doing so… and if the xenos wish to just slam there heads against your hardpoint and not make use of the other Z-levels than… well that’s still rather good for you isn’t it!

BUT still you can’t build the Maginot line like you use to There WILL be a another path you have to account for… and we all know there is only so much time and mats to go around to built your lines.

LETS TALK ABOUT MANEUVER WARFARE.

Fact is that there is a great deal more can be done now with Multi-z as pertains to Maneuver Warfare. As pointed out above you just can’t seal parts of the maps as readily as before. But there is more to it that just that.

Like how about the pig necked marines (xeno for that fact as well) can’t look up and forward at the same time, toss in the fact that many lads don’t have look up set to hot key. Means that unless there has been heavy contact on the roofs most lads just will never look up unless they are planning to head up themselves.

This means that travel by Roof top can be a great way to get the drop on foe. If you are walking dark as marine and not making bunch of noise you can sneak pass many xenos ether to hit them in the rear or from above letting you get in free hits before the bugs know what hit them… some even killed if you are using something like a bipod HPR.

This also works great or even better as xenos as you have no need for light meaning that you have no real telegraphing that you are up there also some xenos like runners can pounce from the roof top with only the tiniest of stuns. you as runner or lurk can also Jump up to higher level if you are looking up for but only a small wind up.

SO Fact is Roof top travel can be way to drop right on top of your foes heads right into the middle of their formation… you can even do a rather funny things as queen and jump right on top of the marines and then screech… Its rather great way to get a screech right into the middle with little telegraphing… issue is if you jump and don’t climb down you are going to get stuck in a rather long stun.

Closing notes
I am rather sleepy as of writing so i will leave it here. Also i know i bring up the Rework is bad form but i feel its important to point out that Multi-Z accomplishes one of the key goals of the Rework without its down sides. Not to say the Multi-Z is without down sides… its got lots of issues itself but for the issue defensive gameplay Multi-Z deals with it wonderfully in my opinion.

EDIT: ADDENDUMS.

Matters of tactical goals

While the over all main strategic goals remain the same for the most part as non-Multi-Z, Tactical goals change a great deal.

This is because of the aforementioned benefits of holding the highground. I have found that combat flows so differently on Multi-Z because of this. Add in the fact that OBs act funny with Multi-Z right now making holding the higher ground much more viable for xenos… after all the walls don’t get busted on the non-ground Z-level.

But the ground level ones do… meaning that pathways up to high ground is much fewer in number. add in the fact that xenos can climb their own walls (marines can make walls and climb them if need be too.) if need be (at least i belive so due correct me if i am wrong.) means that xenos are able to dictate control of the high ground much better then marines if the ground level gets flatten.

But of course xenos can’t make as good use of the high ground as well as the marines but we all know how the ungas are… they can and will walk up the death trap of stair wells… even if it would be better off just bypassing to a better path on mass.

Its also fascinating to note that xenos tend to fight out in the colony much much more then in the caves on Multi-Z maps… this is likely due to fact OBs and CAS is wonky with Multi-Z right now (unless they ended up fixing that is.)

Still the point is that the once goals of taking Filt choke is much more of thing of the past… after all having high ground available to get overwatch on is more preferable then fighting in the caves.

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Finally a good multi-z post. I would like to explore the hardpoints more. Setting up barricaded machinegun nests on the high ground hits just right in my head.

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How long until the haters arrive?

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They all got banned

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“multi-z allows for more strategic defensive and offensive positions”

brother people arent even using flanks with no multi-z

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Is a “knock-on” effect like when a runner jumps off the second floor of admin and hits me in the head, thus knocking me out? Did i get it right?

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True but that’s more of a command and control issue of trying to herd cats that wish to unga. Its rare to happen but is and can be done to great effect.

Ya i sounds odd but it really does allow for more… its just like i said the tools for command and control has yet to be fully integrated… so its double the trouble to even try anything. I guess its matter of allowing for a greater ceiling of play but the players can only jump so high, they rarely ever get to the non-Multi-z ceiling…

meaning that while it does allow for more it kind of a null point as the players can’t reach that new higher limit.

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I want to mention that marine command and the tacmap are half broken with multiz at the moment. There is a PR up that fixes it (the PvE tacmap port) but that is currently stuck in review hell.

I believe that when/if that PR is merged, it will be a massive boon to both sides, but especially marines.

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Correct.

Correct.

Less so.

The point of the FOB rework is incurring a cost to doing this btw. Cades + high ground is absurdly busted, not that many people have figured that out yet.

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Someone should like help the marines a bit to figure out what the hell to do with multi-z cause they’ll probably wonder around crying about it for a month or two before they do.

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Its indeed very powerful, but the issue with increase cost is that fact that even tho with Multi-Z increases the amount of scrap to get it also increases the amount of ground to cover… so if you gank mats too much then you run into a issue of not over all map mats amount but a issue of TIME.

Like you have too much needed to be done to get what needs to be done for a good dug in spot… there just will not be enough time in round to do both the building and scraping. Still with more scrap to be had over all it likely fair to partly lower the output to some degree. just not starting mats.

Anywho i am getting off the main point. Yes it very powerful to have a machinegun nest on high ground but its very much limited if the maps is made right. As the sightlines will only allow for a very limited killbox.

Frankly i think what needs to be done is make it so bipods only work after 2~3 tiles out when shooting down from the high ground. After all bipod weapons are the true danger they can output dumb amounts of IFF DPS ( just look at what a bipod HPR can do when it doesn’t have to worry about IFF.)

This would allow for such weapons still be useful but will have much more limited ground coverage. Not accounting for the fact that its rather soulful… i mean its rather hard to point straight down while also using a bipod IRL.

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I could realy use use some more info on what makes multiz “wokny”. The CAS and OB will be changed, tacmap fixed, you no longer stop looking up when taking damage (WHY has none made me aware of this sooner, that was major pain in ass to play with), there will be z level destruction to some extend, I MIGHT at some point add some pulling up mechanic similar to boosting. But considering that I was not made aware of damage puting your out of looking up it is kinda hard to make it not woky when I do not know TELL ME PLEASE

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Why am I not surprised no one told you and just complained.

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You cannot sprite click when shooting down, which fucks with your accuracy. It’s especially apparent when playing spitting castes.

I will check it, but I tought you can ONLY spriteclick when firing down but there is accuracy reduction when firing cross z level

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Fire ring up didn’t have the problem in my experience, since you are treated as being on the same Z level. But fireing down just feels bad.

Especially on moving targets.

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Things like this need to be properly reported. Bugs on GitHub Sign in to GitHub · GitHub or reported in game. Otherwise on CM-SS13 - Forums if it hasn’t been already but afaik it hasn’t.

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I did, but either nobody read it, or the backlog is too big.

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