The Current State of CIC & CO

insert here a justification of not using already invested solution for second side because our game have asymmetric balance

I know its a joke but for real. Sometimes you have an opportunity to kill 2 same birds with one stone and you should use it instead of wasting god knows how much time to find and polish new one for the sake of just keeping your bird hunt asymmetricall

I dont mean what both side should never have same problems and same tools to deal with those problems. I mean what its not a bad thing to sometimes give both sides same tools

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I can only echo what Chen has said.

What do you all think about the current state of CIC and what it entails?

Relaying instant and pertinent information to all marines. When Command spams fall back, marines listen. When Command tells them to push, they listen. And most of all CIC must stay on top of callouts – not announcing a Queen flank is the easiest way to wipe.

Announcement garble has been an unmitigated disaster. Players already struggled to read announcements, now they’re actively conditioned to ignore them altogether. And even if there’s a little garble, a large fraction of CM’s playerbase speaks English as a second language. They have the barest tenuous grasp of conversational fluency through no fault of their own and now you’re asking them to read asterisk as well.

Why does SL feel like an ineffectual role a lot of the time?

Because marines are actively discouraged from splitting off the ungaball. Whether they realize consciously or not, being part of the human swarm is the best way to get revived and focus enough firepower to hopefully win the game.

Marines who split off get capped, squads who split off get screeched and capped. They have zero staying power mainly thanks to Queen screech.

That’s why SLs are relegated to being walking frontline trackers. Because the gameplay punishes them for doing anything else.

Why does SO feel like watching paint dry?

Good SOs are super useful for calling out backliners, and there’s a few SOs whom I love when I play PFC, but frankly you don’t notice their absence either. It comes down to game influence – they have no gameplay elements, they can’t shape the game, and without any agency it’s boring as hell. Player agency is a big bit and when SOs have none (deploying as PFC+ doesn’t count), it shouldn’t be a surprise that the role itself is boring to play.

Imagine if the Queen couldn’t use Queen eye anymore and had to rely on a new dedicated caste instead. And this new caste couldn’t do anything but Queen eye. That would be awful, wouldn’t it? Queens would learn to not count on the new caste, and playing said caste would be watching like paint dry but on Xenos instead.

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CM’s biggest gameplay factor is communications lag through typing speed. You can’t talk and do an action at the same time. We all know this but it has a million knock on other effects. This isn’t ARMA, I can’t relay something up the chain of command and have an answer in 15 seconds flat. That’s also why the constant shoehorning of RTOs and bloating communication chains in CM is flatly stupid.

Xenos know things instantly and wordlessly: Spectating other Xenos, following Queen, resin markers, etc. Their forced downtime when healing also lends itself crazily well to communication. You can’t do anything else while you rest, so you may as well smack out useful callouts in chat.

Xenos have instant information dissemination. Marines don’t. Which is why I frankly do not understand the obsession with gutting marine comms chains like announcement garble, RTOs, and ,abcd.

This is a platitude but it’s happened too many times in CM history: If people aren’t doing something, the worst thing you can do is delete what they’re currently doing in hopes they’ll do the thing you want instead. They simply won’t do it or play the game at all. Instead if you take the time to figure out why they’re doing something in the first place, then you probably have the solution to nudge things towards how you want it to be.

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Information is power. You can stop xeno flanks, get the correct supplies to the front, save those who have wandered off, and even figure out which cadeline needs to be saved from breaking. Marines can serve multiple jobs, and with enough information that medic can learn they have to stop saving that dead guy and shoot the queen with their ap ammo instead. That’s why taking out ground communications has been in the game forever. Xenos are forced into melee and have less forces so they use movement and positioning to overcome that.

There is a balance of information somewhere, and I am sure some ideas can be used to poke at what that is. Basic ungas could use more guidance. Maybe any of the SL’s cams can be seen by all as long as comms are up?

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Sollution: Merge a voice chat (Just imagine if byond was capable of supporting some sort of voice chat lmao, Im instantly thinking about SL screaming for help as he gets lunged by warrior)

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Announcement garble made me never want to touch CIC again.

CIC’s purpose in my mind is to shepard marines in the right direction and keep them on the right track, so marines don’t run off and die. A good CIC should keeping tabs on supply, fire support, and the overall direction/intensity of the push.

Now I don’t have a problem with A.S.S at it’s core (now that most of the bugs are gone), the big issue is soley announcement garble. Not being able to even properly order a retreat, combined with the fact that punch cards are quite limtied, and don’t even gurantee a perfectly readable mesege for any appreciable amount of time just makes CIC awful to play. CIC was already quite challenging because getting marines to listen to you wasn’t always easy, but now that you can be completely cutoff from marines (and a minute without an announcement can get marines wiped) and can’t even announce to get marines to fix comms if you run out of punch cards. Sure, you can TRY to call marines using radio packs, but how many will actually be able to get comms back up? Not all SL’s carry radio packs, people don’t listen to FTL’s, and comtechs just don’t carry them. Double that issue on lowpop where you literally lack marines to go keep comms up. Hell even before the announcement garble it could be a pain in the ass to get a squad or fireteam to fix comms, especially with Minesweeper being a part of comms repair.

I think SL feels ineffectual because it entirely depends on people wanting to follow the SL. Aka, depends on well respected SL players, of which not a lot play often enough. In addition, a lot of marines just want to do their own thing and practically ignore the SL or CIC if their plan doesn’t allow them to unga as they want. Having SL trackers set to FTL’s by default does not help this.

SO feels boring to many because they treat it like spectator+. Doubly so now that without comms, you can’t even use squad messeges to communicate to them, and are helpless to watch as they run around clueless and get krumped. Personally, I think the main problem is that you can’t really order squads seperate from each other. Unga ball is the meta for a reason, and A.S.S does not change the fact, that a single squad of marines will almost always get wiped by itself. Marines are simply too slow to flank most of the time, too weak individually to have any staying power as a single squad, and lack effective territory control compared to xenos (how fast xenos can weed vs cades, etc). If squads were able to do more individually, SO could be much more engaging.

The proper use of announcements should be for team wide information/requests, anything that the entire marine team should know. For example, asking for OB coords from anyone who can get them. Another would be announcing the current plan like; “Alpha Delta, push A-block. Oscar, kilo, Charlie, flank via security".

If there’s one thing to take away from this, is that announcement garble is fucking awful and should be reverted, maybe make punch cards allow the use of comms without the radio tower instead or something. I’d also like to try CIC with the A.S.S system without the garble, mostly so I can form a proper opinion on it from the perspective of XO.

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People h8 but if someone coded voicechat itd 100% get a testmerge and maybe a full merge

We’re not turning this into a discussion about voice chat or TTS, thanks.

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Good. Thank you and please keep it this way.

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As a somewhat newer XO player, Comms garble is by the far the single worst thing to ever happen to CIC, It makes it miserable to command, majority of the CIC staff dont know how to decrypt or use the punch cards, It really shocks me that it was added in the first place. It was already miserable to try to command the marines before this addition and now having announcements be totally unreadable has made it impossible. There has been numerous times we have lost (lowpop mostly) because we have a lack of comtechs to set up communications and in that timeframe marines cant hear my orders and get themselves wiped.

Totally dogshit change and im not touching CIC anymore its really crazy how this shit got added despite the negative community feedback

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Was gonna say this in some other thread about Garbled comms but since it’s mentioned here, why not.

For anyone that love garbled comms and that’s lore and all, try playing a round as CIC (SO, XO, CO whatever) and make 0 announcement then see how it goes. It’s the same as garbled comms anyways.

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The person piloting the SL is themselves an ineffective SL. There is no standardized training regimen to bring people up to a minimum expectation of their job responsibilities or capabilities. What we end up with is a circus of people learning the role through trial and error, putting everyone in the role at different points in their learning journey (it is NEVER over). You get the entire spectrum of possible SLs from buzz cut psychos to people whose only factual descriptors are limited to being a living and breathing human being.

It takes time, a certain masochistic motivation, the development of communication skills and game sense applicable only in CM to eventually churn out someone who some might call a competent leader. But they not only have to learn all of these things over however many hours of living, dying, and repeating; they then have to be able to apply what they’ve learned and communicate that effectively with anywhere between 2~30 people.

Most of the people beneath them are themselves not actually marines. They’re people who have logged onto CM with any number of motivations–mostly falling under “just to have fun”. They’ll do what is mostly immediately in their interest; Finding the nearest xeno and clicking on them until one or the other falls over horizontal. They are, like their SL, untrained to any minimum standard and are only beholden to obedience as much as they feel like.

As those SLs become more competent I’ve noticed that they slowly go up the chain of command. SLs become SOs, who go on to become XOs and COs. Those competent SLs remove themselves from the ground and allow that slot to be taken up by some fresh fool and the cycle will repeat itself. All of that game sense that lets people intuit what xenos might be plotting is now gated behind a comms array that may or may not be functional for one reason or another.

The overwatch interfaces are clunky and not engaging to interact with. They take up a not-insignificant amount of screen real estate and I have dedicate my 2nd monitor to having that functionality available to me while still being able to see what is actually going on. For those that don’t, their perspective of an already limited field of view from marine cameras constrains their ability to observe things happening in the round to near-pinhole vision.

Much like everything else with CM, SO start as untrained volunteers. They have no familiarity with their tools, their responsibilities, or their capabilities. They go through a similarly slow and painful process anyone else might of learning a new role through trial and error. Maybe pick up a few tips and tricks from observing or being subordinate to an SO whose been through some of that process.

With a starting point of nothing, you get people who are waiting around to be told how to be useful instead of proactively making themselves useful. There are precious few moments where someone can stop to start walking people through their job responsibilities because every match is a life and death scenario. There are no scheduled exercises pre-deployment to get people up to speed with what they need to be doing and how to be doing it. People slot in, aren’t engaged with surface level SO gameplay, and then peace out to do something where they feel like they’re playing the game.

Ideally communicating information that would be pertinent to all marines present on the ground. If your announcement has the right words, and people shipside know the map, even your shipside support staff can get an idea of what is going on on the planet.

But the ideal world is a dream.

Anything that needs to be done is like pulling teeth. You have to apply constant pressure to marines groundside to slowly influence what they are doing. The same announcement 5 times trying to get people to stop fighting at the choke and feeding xenos caps, to pull back a single landmark to allow xenos to push out and be destroyed. The push and pull that minimizes your risk of giving captures while maximizing your chance at killing the enemy.

If something requires the attention that a small tasked force would be able to do, without impacting the stability of the frontline, you have to use an announcement until someone finally says, “Fuck it, I guess I’ll do it.”

Directly tasking someone, even using their name to address them directly over the radio, often fails to generate any momentum to recover something like a team of dead marines in the backline.

That’s implying your comms are even on to begin with so that people can understand it. Then you have to filter through the radiopacks looking for someone who isn’t captured, dead, deaf, or ignoring their radio. If you do successfully connect with someone motivated to do what you are asking, they will face the same problem of needing to nag marines to generate momentum to finally get something done.

I tolerate it at best. It’s less enjoyable and more like a tax on my psyche that I put myself through when I feel like shoving splinters under my fingernails. It’s constrictive and not nearly as engaging as leading from the front. Shipside has its moments, and I have a rare mood where I don’t feel like leaving the bubble, but gameplay on the ground is consistently enjoyable and chaotic between shooting the shit with PFCs and get jumped by a lurker.

This remark from the most recent whitelist-announcement regarding CO’s deploying was something that I wanted to touch on.

I would love to be able to consistently trust that my subordinates are capable people and competent in their job’s responsibilities and tools.

The reality is that there is no minimum standard that people are trained up to. I can’t blanketly trust everyone under my command to be competent at their jobs and taking a proactive role in the round.

The most common example of delegation failing is trying to get an OB designated anywhere. I very often find myself having to beg down the squad roster from most to least senior trying to get anyone to give me coordinates. Squad Leaders give me nothing so I turn to FTLs. FTLs give me nothing so I turn to Specialists like the Scout and Sniper. Specialists give me nothing and I have to beg on every channel to every PFC with a rangefinder to give me something so we can press forward. I still very often get nothing and have to give command to my XO, spend 5~10 minutes gearing and deploying; and I show up personally to laze an OB in a situation that had not changed in the entire time it took me to get there.

This can be for any number of reasons. People just don’t know how, they don’t have the confidence to attempt an OB, or they’re just plain ignoring me assuming that someone else will do it (even after I try addressing people by name.

COs end up doing everything because they’re the only people who are willing, able, and know how to do everything. When something falls through because no one is doing it, a CO fills in because those things need to be done.

tldr: deny more CO apps

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I sorely wished this was possible, but your previous points kind of highlight just how hopeless it is. Groundside command being competent relies on you having at least one experienced player who knows how to SL effectively and them not dying. In many cases it’s actually more effective for you to force aSL on a competent player you know is good at SL, much to their chagrin.

I don’t believe delegating responsibility as CO will ever be more effective that ‘doing it yourself’, simply because the average skill of the playerbase doesn’t increase over time due to veteran burnout and fresh newbies joining.

We will never reach a point where you consistently have competency groundside unless something changes, I.e. force new SLs to play an SL tutorial. Without features that help newbies gain basic knowledge quickly, nothing will change.

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