If somebody doesn’t care about brief they wont care regardless of if you OOCly force them to sit down and attend, they wont listen and they’ll be tabbed out or on their phone
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Never say anything about OOCly forceing them. just ways to nudged them to go to brief with in IC means. as for the idea of having alamo locked i am on the fence about that one, even than its not forceing lads to go to brief but stopping them from AFKing on the alamo.
Edit:
for example of one of the things than can be done IC that I have done before is as the Chef putting out food and drinks at breif, and calling it out on comms.
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Think we could do a similiar effect by making it so you can’t get certain items without being in brief?
Or better idea, going back to something someone once mentioned so long ago; why don’t we just remove the vending machines and tables in brief and bring Req forward to be part of Brief?
Edit: Like it purpousfully feeds out into Brief.
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I think you’re conflating “attending the briefing” with “better cohesion”.
I don’t think they are linked, any more than casually. Making people attend a briefing, or not be in the dropship waiting, isn’t going to increase cohesion.
As someone said earlier, it’s really about SL’s (and SO’s) being charismatic. That mean’s helping convince the marines that you have their best interests at heart. It means things like:
- Getting them things from the SL vendor
- Helping out new team members, if you teach the new to be cohesive, they stay cohesive
- Demonstrate competency
- Demonstrate decisiveness. Sometimes this means going against command orders. Maybe you are left to long at comms? send a FT off somewhere.
- Support what marines want to do, even if you don’t, where at all you can accommodate it
- Communicate constantly. Tell the SO’s/XO what is happening. Tell your marines. Tell then what you see and what pings are around.
- Have backup and fallback plans, and communicate what those are constantly
The biggest one is don’t be an asshole. The whole “Oh but me being an asshole is RP!” is just a silly excuse to being a dick. It will not work. Instead, you have to be persuasive.
Everything above applies to both SO’s and the XO and CO. Memeing it and being a “hardass” is just silly.
It is worth noting that everything I said above applies in real-life. Leadership is about being persuasive, not about the rank pinned on your shoulder. Command is the authority to lead, leading is how you get people to do things. You have to inspire them and convince them you offer the best solution to surviving and thriving in the round.
Some of my best squad members tend to idle in the DS because the brief is often a waste of time, with crappy XO’s (and frankly CO’s) making a silly caricature of what they think commanders do. Forcing people to listen to a bad leader is not going to increase cohesion in the field.
I think a better solution is:
After Action Reports (AAR)
That SO’s/XO can do for SLs at the end of the round. These can then be reviewed, and SLs can be promoted between SGT to MSGT on the basis of many AARs after review by the CO council. Doesn’t need to even be a benefit from it in game, a gentle nudge like that might be enough to see people playing SLs as leaders, not living some authority fantasy.
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So firstly, I’m autistic, so the Charisma thing is just not happening for me.
Secondly, would you believe I’ve tried to do what you suggested? Talk to people as soon as we come out of cry-and their gone. Ask people if they want special gea-aaand nobody answers back. Tell them what our evolving plan is as I get information, aaaand they’re doing the one thing I practically begged them to not to do. Had a serious event of this when Charlie was initially just “Comms and then go help Ahlpa”, and while we had to fix some locational weirdness it very quickly turned into “OHGODOHSHIT THE XENOS ARE CONSTANTLY PUSHING US, DO NOT LEAVE CADES, DO NOT LEAVE CADES!!!” Aaaand I lost like half my group to xenos because lets go play outside the wire because it means we’re pushing them!
I really and truly don’t ask for much as an SL, I try to give people things to do, I try to be commanding without trying to be a dick, but when I ask/command you “Do not leave the cades”, the SO is commanding you “Stay behind the cades”, and the XO has told you “Ignore what I said about getting bodies, stay behind the cades”… maybe don’t go into the darkness just beyond the cades.
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I work with autistic people and I can see how some of what I wrote wasn’t really specific enough to be helpful.
Talk to people as soon as we come out of cry-and their gone. Ask people if they want special gea-aaand nobody answers back.
This is something I can relate to. What I should have said is that I tend to assume people won’t answer back. I always ask, but mostly what this means is giving people stuff out of the vendors.
First thing when I wake up (I’m Kolton Murphy, usually Charlie):
- 4 x Medihuds
- 1 x Large Magazine Pouch
And I throw these outside the marine vendors. Then I tell people they are there. At the same time I ask if anyone wants a weapons kit. Mostly, people don’t. But occasionally - they will ask!
If nobody asks for a weapons kit, I get the engineering kit. I keep the welding googles for myself. If the CT’s don’t want it, or there are none in my squad, I give it to the bravo SL / CT at briefing.
Tell them what our evolving plan is as I get information, aaaand they’re doing the one thing I practically begged them to not to do
When it comes to this, I generally try and stick with what the squad wants to do wherever possible. This means seeing my role as more of a facilitator. I’m there to keep the squad alive and try help us make a meaningful contribution to the round. In my estimation, that is what most people want. So I try and make that super clear up front in my words and actions.
Having been a section leader and a platoon commander IRL, this isn’t far from the reality. You make it clear to your soldiers you’re there for them. To keep them alive. To help us do worthwhile stuff for the unit. So I work for them, and all i need is a little help and focus from them to do so.
For SLs/SOs/XO and especially COs - you need to Share Success and Own failure.
Building rapport and trust takes time. IRL, new section and platoon commanders face the same issue. So you look for little ways to build trust and rapport with your soldiers. Try and anticipate their needs and show them you care.
- Escort them back to FOB when they are hugged/badly injured
- When at fob, give them time to resupply ammo (and tell them to do so)
- Give them food mid mission, remind them to do so when there is food available (throw it at them, point, smile).
Building rapport is especially important with your Specs:
- if your spec sniper is having trouble finding a spotter, help them!
- if you have a spec SADAR, offer to carry ammo for them
IRL, commanders do not yell or bellittle their soldiers. They work extremely hard to build rapport and trust, for the very few times they need to cash it in.
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Now i don’t want to get all philosophical but i have to get my point across sorry about this in advance.
humans are creatures of habit and conformity, if you see a foot path in short grass even tho it does not really matters if you go on it, its not really more comfortable or faster. most times your are going going to take the foot path as along as it mostly aligns with were you are going.
This is simply because its the path that is to be taking. More or less humans are going to conform as long as it mostly aligns whether it be a path, politics or what’s ‘popular’ at the time. As long as its not some thing we hate or have a core issue on a fundamental level.
humans are going to conform to what ever it is do to social pressures, if you see that a lot of people are seeming having fun doing some thing your going to want to join EVEN if you don’t think it will be that fun.
This is why Fads happen some thing seem to gain popular, as such if you are not part of it you are shamed or feel like you are missing out on some thing.
Gah i am having a hard time getting were i am going across, Well i just get to the point. Humans will conform to what is ‘perceived’ as popular or right conduct, basely we conform to a degree to the group around us.
So if brief has greater attendance even if players are not paying attention, it will make a social pressure TO attend. A lack of attendance can do the same for not attending.
Also it goes the same for following orders if enough follow the order it will make a social pressure to do so. This is why you have SL screaming to fallback and the mass only follows the orders after a good number start to move.
Perception of authority is just as imported as having that authority.
More or less having lads attend brief consistently it will help with the perception of authority the command staff and SL have.
TL;DR
well small brief attendance can help a little bit with cohesion.
Also last note i don’t want to sound like i think people are automatons unable to make there own choices, just that social pressure has more of a effect than people will many of times care to admit on them.
Also this is just Le funny spaceman game, what ever is done to the game should be taking account the fun the player are having.
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Some vary good advice a SL who is caring and willing to help are some of the most liked. just note just tossing shit out from the vender doesn’t always ingratiate lads to you. best works when lads ask you for things.
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I get the rough point and there is a real life comparison with aircraft safety briefings. Science consistently finds that people who pay attention in the briefing have better survival rates - regardless of how often they fly.
However…
The problem here is tested for thousands of years by militaries. Leadership is leadership whether you are controlling people who are pixels on a screen, a real platoon, or CEO of a company. Your rank or position is simply the authority to lead. It doesn’t make you a leader. It provides you the mandate to become one.
As in the real world, briefings don’t factor greatly into squad cohesion. Take for example rounds where the SL’s attend the briefing in CIC. Are those rounds more or less cohesive? If those rounds can be cohesive - why? when there was no briefing at all?
As I said earlier, many of my best marines skip the briefing and idle in the dropship. I personally go to the briefing because I want to get a measure of the command. Size up the CO/XO and the SOs. How are they going to play this? Are they going to RP shipside and lose situational awareness on the ground?
If you want better squad cohesion, you need squad leaders people can trust. If you want better command, you need commanders who people trust. If people don’t trust you, then you cannot lead them. It is absolutely impossible. So Squad Leaders need to build a rapport with soldiers over time, over rounds. People learn the leaders they can trust and, more importantly perhaps those they can’t, and then work around them.
This has a parallel in the real world as well. Plenty of platoon commanders wonder why their career stagnates, only to find out too late that the SNCOs don’t trust them. Who tell the SgtMaj, who of course talks constantly to the CO. If your people don’t trust you, you don’t deserve to be in a leadership position and should make room for someone deserving of that - no matter the context.
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True but the lack of perception of authority can be quite harmful. Got to keep in mind that IRL if you are found not following orders shit can go Vary bad for you.
Part of what the issue here is that we are playing Le funny game and as such its really there is not much of a punishment for not following order. Because to do so will most likely suck the fun out of playing.
So we got to do things in a way that will help with the perception of authority with out harming the fun.
But still you are right about it ending up about trust in commanders and the squad leaders. I think most can agree on that being the most imported point.
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Probably should have clerified, wasn’t trying to use it as a crutch, just saying I know I’m FUBAR in that department. ^.^;
You offer a lot of good advice though, Rocket. I’ll take it to heart and start trying to employ more of it as I’m settling into the SL role more.
4 Medihuds? It’ll never work.
Charlie represeeeent. I play River J. Wolf btw 
This… just this.
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1 (frankly even 2) squads cannot work on their own effectively. It’s too easy for xenos to redirect and concentrate overwhelming force on a single squad and the game has developed further down this route by coders balancing xenos against a marine murderball of 3-4 squads together.
The problem with squad cohesion is you cannot fight with less than a murderball. Everything is designed on marines murderballing and if you try to split squads up and have some actual strategy or cohesion the split squads get easily killed in detail due to lack firepower, lack of coordination, and especially lack of sustain.
I’ve seen this problem actually solved a few times - but it was back when we had the tank, which was powerful enough to act as half a squad in its own right, and gave a split off force enough sustain and firepower to hold itself together long enough for other squads to reinforce if the queen suddenly pivoted or they got swarmed.
Anyway it’s w/e current CM is never going to solve this problem.
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Yeah, briefing attendance is a really bad measure of squad cohesion, generally. Briefing has no significant impact whatsoever on a marine’s knowledge of “the plan” because 1) The orders get repeated over radio, 2) You can ask the SL, 3) The tacmap exists and 4) The plan is usually just the same thing from round-round.
Most people who don’t go to briefing tend to be relatively experienced players who can’t be assed to sit and listen to flavour text, so they just tab out and AFK in the DS. Force these people to attend brief, and they’ll just tab out and AFK in the brief chairs.
It’s pretty much impossible to get full squad cohesion even if you’re Bill Carson, there’ll always be a chunk of marines who fuck off to god knows where.
Building up a good image for marines takes a very long time, and constant maintenance. Since each individual SL has to go through this process, we end up with relatively few “good” SLs- This number will never increase on it’s own. As such, if you want to bring “average cohesion” up,
mechanical changes to gameplay is the way to go.
We won’t fix this problem by fixing the players, only by fixing the game.
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Deltard Pride World Wide!
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Delta’s a wildcard. Either dead in 10 minutes or the spearhead on the path to righteous cleansing of these wretched lands - no in-between. Charlie’s my favorite though, mainly because it usually has the highest concentration of people that listen and follow orders out of all the other squads.
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This issue is as old as Bill Carson and no amount of mechanics will fix it unless the community gets better you are just wasting your time here sorry
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Only HRP CM can save us.
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No amount of ‘Skill Issue’ will resolve the fact that we’ve been playing this game for over a decade and squad cohesion remains just as terrible in 2014 as it does in 2024.
Whilst it has been stated that it is intentional that Marines be harder to coordinate, it does beg the question if more could and would be done to improve cohesion for the average low-level grunt.
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RTS-style commands from CIC. Tacmap is a good start, but it is too slow. AI-view for command that sees what cameras and marine cameras see, ability to “select” a marine, or marines and ordering them something to do via xeno-styled marks (that are invisible to xenos).
Or if that is too much work, or something, improve tacmap significantly. Let it update every 10-30 seconds and actually show which dot are you.
Many times orders fall on deaf ears when command yells some hyper-specific name for a place on a map as a point of interest. Even on older maps like Solaris Ridge. This could be solved by introducing grid-system to wiki maps that everyone can use, it is much easier, faster and better to yell “Queen D6” instead of “Queen caves south-east from chapel”.
This helps your average low-level grunt who doesn’t know maps like the back of his hand, it is much better than “just go where you SL is”.
Marines typing on the frontline won’t be a thing even if it was HRP server. One guy has to direct all of his attention to type something in chat, while others have to direct a lot of attention to read that. Xenos have the luxury of just breaking LoS behind a wall in darkness and they can type all they want with many early warnings like marine lights, or just seeing marines trough walls to finish typing and run. Every time marine tries to do it it is a risk, unless literally surrounded by marines from every side, or behind cades.
Maybe some kind of individual marine “status” that marines update themselfs. Like a “shield” meaning they are currently guarding this area, some kind of symbol to show they are trying to flank,
another for looking for intel, another for trying to lase etc.
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The Commander system from BF2 / BF2142 comes to mind.
Granting Marines a quicker to update TacMap, and letting CIC select squads or individual marines and click a point on a map which will directly tell a Marine where they are expected to go.
You could then add it to the Marines personal TacMap, both squad movement and individual movement orders, perhaps also add a second compass UI that points to the move objective.
I don’t know the feasibility but this kind of system might be a big improvement.
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