Winchester house meta ya just don’t get it smh
3 Likes
This is not exactly an awful idea though.
Of course what is on the screenshot is not perfect, because in order to retreat to FOB you need to either go through noman’s land two tiles, or escape into the jungle to enter FOB from south hoping that there is no xeno on the way. But building outside the LZ into jungles is not that uncommon. This is actually somewhat effective, because it makes it a lot harder to approach LZ flanks for xenos. If anyone guarding the flanks, of course, which is usually not the case.
1 Like
I actually built the innermost two layers of cades— anything wrong with those? Dunno about what bro was accomplishing with the outstretched line, but I tried to follow all the golden rules of cading- folders at the edges, not flush with corners, occasional folders in long stretches of cades. The only issue I had with my own work was susceptibility to boiling but the Alamo pad was right there so it was go in or go out and I only had time to go in with no escort for the siege to build out.
1 Like
They give me massive Schofield vibes: a boiler death trap where foldables aren’t linked and passages are tighter than vietkong tunnels
If anyone survives a Neuro glob in these cadelines - he’ll strangle the guy that built them
1 Like
My issue with this is that if your objective is to make entry into FOB harder, then why would you make an isolated ‘flanking tower’ outside when you can just expand the FOB cades themselves into the jungle (which is simpler, more accessible, and more protective)?
There is no reason why a disconnected segment would be superior than a simple extension to the FOB itself. I don’t think flanking towers as a concept work in CM because as you stated- These will almost never be manned.
It’s kinda like holding comms- Once the xenos decide to seriously push you, you either GTFO to FOB or you die where you stand.
As such, in the context of CM- This is absolutely a bad idea.
1 Like
I must confess. I made the cades.
2 Likes
Being flush with corners really isn’t a big deal imo. For it to have a solid beneficial effect you’ve got to pull the cades back 2+ (preferably 3+) tiles to actually extend the xeno exposure time and make the attacks risky for them. In my experience there’s virtually no difference in how long a cade lasts in these positions whether it’s flush or not and rather than considering one method better than the other I think they should be considered nearly identical.
The best way to prevent the problem usually isn’t to pull cades back, but to push them outwards into an offensive shape that eliminates the cover for xenos. In the OP’s image you could accomplish that with just 1-2 more cades at the choke, which would force xenos to cover about 4-6 tiles in the open to reach the cadeline from cover. Much much much better situation for marines defending than dealing with a xeno popping out 1 tile and slashing repeatedly.
Hopefully self explanatory in the image
2 Likes
Me Bravoid brain iz meltin lookin at them cades
2 Likes
this is actually huge tips- I think my brain hadn’t really comprehended “offensive cades” because my train of thought was “this is gonna be unmanned most of the time so it can’t be super easy for xenos to poke” but in the event of a siege that’s like multiplicative power for defense. I’ll try it out next time!
1 Like
I’m assuming that green rectangle represents a door- Generally I’d say that if your plan is to make the cades suited for offensive skirmishing, then putting doors on the sides is essential, rather than the centre. The amount of FF and traffic jams caused by doors in the middle of cades is ridiculous.
@doctoramazing this applies to your first cadeline too- Don’t put doors in the middle, always put them on the sides.
2 Likes
Problem is there is not enough space on the LZ to build meaningful defenses. If you have only two layers of cades, xenos might easily break through in the matter of seconds, especially when nobody is watching. One of the function of cades is staling.
Your job is also to make killzones for xenos.
Believe this or not, but a lot of times xenos play on autopilot. I’ll give you an example. Almayer lower engineering hold. How do xenos break such a hold? They go through maints, break a wall somewhere and they are in. What did I do? I kept the overall cades structure like if the walls still existed, but I used XM51 to shoot down most of the walls on the outer perimeter. The outcome? Xenos went through maints, like they always do, but were met by flanking fire. So they went even deeper, hoping to find cover there and break through the walls deeper in the maints as usual, and then, because they couldn’t efficiently use CQC without walls they got completely surrounded. All of that because they were playing a familiar meta and I countered it.
Back to the tower. I mean, it all depends on many things. A flanking fortification can be a game changer or it can be completely useless. Depends on xeno roster, their strategy, situational awareness, and on marines, of course. But overall, having a killzone with two sides you can use to attack (and two sides for xemnos to attack) is better, than just having a single cadeline with a single direction of fire/xeno assault. Of course, xenos can counter killzones, of course, nothing is fail-proof. A single boiler can and will ruin your every plan. But it doesn’t mean your plan never had a chance to work.
The fortifications on your screenshot aren’t perfect, but they can work. They can confuse xenos and lure them into killzone. I can see the idea behind this and I like it.
This is your problem. You should think outside the box. The problem with Mauricio is not that he’s trying something unconventional. The problem is he just sucks at it. He tried, but failed. But his failure shouldn’t discourage us from always looking for something new.
I’ll give you another example. A relatively recent round on Fiorina. Marines fortified yard, queen flanked and cut them off from FOB. Based on your words, this is a fail state. From now on, marines have only two ways (citing you): GTFO to FOB or die where they stand. The outcome? Because marines decided to stay their ground, queen had to significantly stretch her forces and overextend a few times, to make sure the encirclement remains. And because she tried to bite off more than she could chew, eventually she got sandwiched from two sides: by marines from the FOB and by the “surrounded” force.
Was it just pure luck? Maybe. Was it just a misplay from xenos? Also maybe. But can’t we narrow down pretty much every defeat to some kind of a misplay that happened that round? Thus your job as an engineer is to build ground for these misplays to happen. Yeah, if xenos play perfectly, they can break through every fortress. But xenos don’t play perfectly. And an improper cadeline eventually can be better at utilizing xeno misplays than a proper meta cadeline, that was built just with “staling for time” in mind.
3 Likes
The beloved old sprites.
These are some fair points you’ve mentioned that I agree with- Yes, these unconventional cades CAN absolutely can work effectively- Hell, I’ve seen Schofield cades hold off the entire hive because xenos were so braindead they rammed themselves against his 400 metal 4 tile choke instead of going around and hitting literally anywhere else, which was undefended with single cadelines (schofield ate all the metal).
However, it doesn’t alleviate my concerns with these things- Which is that it’s risky. In my opinion, the safest option is always the best option- Fortifying the main FOB is boring and conventional, but safe. It carries little inherent risk, whereas constructing isolated flanking fortifications where manpower is thin is a very risky move. It COULD work, but is the potential reward worth the risk? Or is it safer to reinforce FOB or the frontline, where you will have near-guaranteed effectiveness?
There’s the obvious fun factor, and that’s ultimately why we play the game, of course. I’m not gonna stop schofield from doing… whatever he’s doing, but I sure as hell am gonna shake my head disapprovingly and say ‘*golfclap’.
In my opinion, this example doesn’t really seem to be relevant to what I was saying above- I was talking specifically about building into the jungle by using fortifications disconnected from the main FOB, instead of simply extending the main cadeline outwards.
If I were talking about any fortification outside FOB in general, then that includes everything from medic hugboxes to simple cadelines on the front.
I don’t think extrapolating my statement that it’s ‘GTFO or die’ in that context to literal frontline cades in the Yard on Fiorina is fair, given it lacks context- I was responding to your statements on buildingI obviously don’t consider medic hugboxes or any frontline fortification to be a fail state- They’re just by-the-book things marines do every round.
Indeed, they’re completely different scenarios- The example you mentioned has a high concentration of marines and is well, the literal frontline. Compare that to the jungle ‘flanking tower’, which will likely have no one manning it, and is located in an out-of-the-way area (jungle).
My main gripe with those fortifications is that they are isolated from the main FOB, despite well… being in screen range. If there was a door connecting it to the FOB cadelines, then it would be fine, because it’d be effectively the same as building outwards into jungle directly from FOB, just with a fucked up shape. I can definitely see it making a serious killzone, but really in it’s current state I’d consider it to be a marine killzone, a deathtrap with no escape.
-
I don’t have a problem with extending things out into the jungle, I have a problem with making these fortifications disconnected, and thus unlikely to be manned and easy to perma in.
-
I think the L shape formed by the jungle and main cadeline create an excellent killzone in the middle, as you say. Ignoring the other shitty aspects (1 tile corridors…), the fact there’s an awful metal cade instead of a door to FOB is the number one deal breaker. This makes it a disconnected fortification and thus a hellish deathtrap.
-
I don’t think you need to make isolated bubbles around FOB to create effective killzones. Things such as the Star-Fortress from medieval Europe allow for killzones without any disconnected segments. IMO, you can accomplish the same killzone effect with extending the FOB, while making marines less prone to permaing in isolated forts.
In any case, I don’t think the screenshotted thing even counts as a flanking tower, because I’m 90% sure flanking towers are supposed to be connected to the main fortification, at least based off the pictures of them. All of them show as being ‘bulges’ from the main line of defence where you enter and exit the flanking tower while still being in the main fortification- They’re not separate islands, they’re just effectively extensions of the FOB.
Ultimately, I think we might’ve been arguing over nothing this whole time, since we both would be fine with it if it wasn’t for the god-awful lack of doors into FOB or the boiler deathtrap corridor. Woops?
1 Like
Just to chime in. Flanking towers like was seen in forts built from 1700-1800 were only really built that way because it was essentially angled armor against cannons. Because if you tried to shoot it straight on, you just kinda ricoched, or didn’t do any actual damage, while if you tried to get the angle right, you not only have to get closed to another flanking tower, but the enemy can now essentially broadside you with their defensive cannons.
So trying to justify cades as those… You have to be a special someone.
3 Likes
We are now discussing history. My interest is peaked.
6 Likes
I mean the game is all about risk management. You can go for the safest option all the time, but sometimes you need to really commit to achieve anything. Chasing a near crit xeno is a risk on its own. You can get lunged by a warrior and flinged to Brazil. I mean, people don’t respect engineers much. For good reasons, maybe. So they expect engineers to not experiment and to build mostly meta. This is understandable, yet I think there is still room for trying something new.
Yard wasn’t connected to the main FOB, in fact it was several screens away. My point was that something being disconnected might lure xenos into thinking they can cut it off. Which is risky, but makes xenos take additional risks too.
Another example is xenos having an opening into Alamo. Usually, you should avoid this scenario at all costs. But Queen wanting to lock down the dropship and secure a complete victory might lead her to go for it, taking a risk by entering Alamo full of marines, and as we both know, often such a move leading to Queen’s death. And often it leads to a complete groundside wipe. Is this risk worth it? Maybe not really. Yet I think we both agree if every DP launched the moment xenos are near Alamo, we wouldn’t have so many memorable moments where marines snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
I mean, this is the issue. We cannot know the future. Maybe these cades will be a waste of metal, because no one will be manning it. Maybe these cades will be a death trap for several marines, who will get cut off, killed and permad. Maybe these cades won’t even be used, as xenos break through a different flank (which is what ultimately happened). But maybe there will be a HPR hero manning the cade, who will kill several xenos trying to breach into FOB proper, as it is the shortest way to the FOB.
2 Likes
I only put the door there to keep it simple; my preference is to offset doors or put them on flanks
1 Like
In what forsaken realms are you finding these things?
1 Like
why is it that 5*5 spam is meta anyway?
Covering that much ground doesn’t utilize terrain all that well, uses a lot of extra metal, and thins the marine front an extreme amount because of all the distance it covers. Alongside this, distance means other cades don’t support each other - when 1 cade falls it essentially becomes useless and destroying the rest of the cades is easy.
Sure it’s the easiest to use, counters boilers, allows for easy flow of movement, and is generally difficult to fight, but it’s also the least dense option available.
So mauricio’s notorious crabclaw starts to look like an interesting alternative (especially if you put sandbags in front, to block boiler shots)
(blue is sandbags, red is cades, d is door)
Maybe Mauricio is right in spamming all 300 cades in 1 choke…
But then you realize 1 tile flanks only accommodate 1 marine’s worth of movement, and it starts to look a lot less appealing. However it only costs 4 extra cades to make the claw cades 2 tiles wide instead of 1.
Maybe 2 wide side hallways on a 3 by 3 are a better tileable design then 5 by 5 spam due to the nature of cade density supporting other cades
3 Likes