Firstly. The Scout’s rifle with a bayonet is the 2nd most damaging melee weapon in the game, only a Predators Glaive deals more damage, they don’t need a fireaxe which deals less damage. Just to make sure we are on the same page.
Secondly, I fail to see how Scouts killing low health Xenos in a backline is some massive balance issue. If the xenos are just ducking behind a corner to heal, instead of retreating into a secure area with resin doors, then that is the risk they take. Again, if the xenos realize they are being killed by a cloaked human they should then take steps to avoid resting in easily accessible locations.
(Also, there is only ever a single scout, its not guaranteed one will even appear, and there is no guarantee the player is competent or skilled enough to act in a hyper aggressive melee role and instead just act like a rearline sniper.
Humans are not the only faction who needs to watch their backline.
@KingPhilipIII I don’t think a Marine taking a shotgun makes them a try hard any more than a xeno evolving into a Lurker or Ravenger.
I also think you are exaggerating a circumstance where a solo marine can PB you, then quickdraw a revolver, stun you, then quickdraw another gun to kill you. I won’t deny it has never happened, but is it wise for us to balance for the top 1% of players or for ultra niche circumstances?
Arguments about comparing gameplay to the movies fail simply because in the movies a single M41A burst would kill the average Xeno, and the Xenos threw themselves at the Marines with utter disregard to their safety.
Firstly. The Scout’s rifle with a bayonet is the 2nd most damaging melee weapon in the game, only a Predators Glaive deals more damage, they don’t need a fireaxe which deals less damage. Just to make sure we are on the same page.
Oh GOT IT, so his weapon is actually MORE DAMAGING than the example I was using just so everyone has a frame of reference. And this is supposed to help your argument?
Secondly, I fail to see how Scouts killing low health Xenos in a backline is some massive balance issue. If the xenos are just ducking behind a corner to heal, instead of retreating into a secure area with resin doors, then that is the risk they take. Again, if the xenos realize they are being killed by a cloaked human they should then take steps to avoid resting in easily accessible locations.
(Also, there is only ever a single scout, its not guaranteed one will even appear, and there is no guarantee the player is competent or skilled enough to act in a hyper aggressive melee role and instead just act like a rearline sniper.
Humans are not the only faction who needs to watch their backline.
I’m not getting too much into ‘how much of an issue is it’ so much as addressing how according to you, lurkers pushing people is a critical issue that NEEDS a terribly thought out balance change but the scout playing peekaboo with a melee weapon is definitely A-OK.
I also think you are exaggerating a circumstance where a solo marine can PB you, then quickdraw a revolver, stun you, then quickdraw another gun to kill you. I won’t deny it has never happened, but is it wise for us to balance for the top 1% of players or for ultra niche circumstances?
I’m not strictly saying he’s alone, I’m just saying plenty of marines will flex on you hard even if the situation wasn’t horribly thought out, and we actually have a surprising number of players that can perform like that. If you played lurker every now and again you might realize that.
Ultraniche circumstances
You mean like the lurker change?
Arguments about comparing gameplay to the movies fail simply because in the movies a single M41A burst would kill the average Xeno, and the Xenos threw themselves at the Marines with utter disregard to their safety.
Once again I said this earlier in the thread. Canon and realism will always take a backseat to superior game design, but if you REALLY want to say ‘THIS IS JUST LIKE LURKERS AND BURROWERS!!!1!!!11!’ then congratulations we’ve really gone so far from the source material why are we even bothering to roleplay as aliens and marines anymore? We might as well make this game a TF2 clone. Fear of being stalked and murdered in the dark was a thing for the humans because we were roleplaying as colonial marines and aliens.
Well, it’s a good thing I’m not a developer and just a random player.
Also, please don’t put arguments into my mouth. I never claimed that a change to Lurker balance was a critically needed change to the game. I only gave my opinion that I felt the change was justified after the fact, I never suggested the change before it came out.
Though I will say, I don’t think Lurkers losing cloak is at all comparable to Scouts meleeing while cloaked. Those are two separate balance issues, changing one does not affect another.
I also don’t think Lurkers pushing marines is an ultra-niche circumstance.
EDIT: Also I’ll shoot back your argument. I might not be a Xeno main, but as a Marine main I do believe that Lurkers do push Marines around a lot, and even while cloaked, and they still do it even though they lose cloak. Maybe you don’t notice it as much as a Xeno, but as a Marine its common.
If you align yourself with someone making the change, you are expressing support for it. It is true you didn’t make the change yourself, but I will address you the same way I would address Morrow if I were arguing with him.
They’re two super cheesy things that can happen. The actual impact of them isn’t what’s important here, what matters is morrow slapped lurkers with a nerf saying ‘lol invisible cheese bad’ while we have the exact same invisibility cheese going on with melee scouts but there’s no rush to correct that.
I do actually play marine quite frequently, and I will acknowledge getting shoved by lurkers is a thing that happens often, but the critical difference is they aren’t intentionally trying to push me away from my buddies by doing it and outside of them getting a couple slashes off on me before I promptly light them the fuck up with a flamethrower or a shotgun it doesn’t impact me all that much.
What exact kind of cheese are you detesting from Scouts? Their clock+melee ability? Body blocking? I have never seen a Scout run up to a xeno and try to push them away from their allies and into a Marine horde.
Availability of a role also dictates balance to a degree. There can only ever be a single Marine scout, but there can be multiple Lurkers.
Availability of a role also dictates balance to a degree. There can only ever be a single Marine scout, but there can be multiple Lurkers.
Meanwhile, foxtrot with 3 SADARS…
This was always a bad argument anyway, considering it’s usually 4-5 marines for every one xeno.
What exact kind of cheese are you detesting from Scouts? Their clock+melee ability? Body blocking? I have never seen a Scout run up to a xeno and try to push them away from their allies and into a Marine horde.
Being murdered by someone you couldn’t see approach and can’t respond to outside of running away (If you’re like me and just can’t spot them to save your life) is cringe. Once upon a time scout was just that, scout, but now they’re more of a stalker hunting unprepared xenos. Which I mean, sure, go off, but then we need to drop pretenses of invisible lurkers murdering people being a problem.
I guess a comparable situation was imagine a lurker that can’t pounce but doesn’t decloak on slash. You’re now being maimed by a target you can’t even see and can only run and hope you either escape it or your buddies arrive to force it to disengage.
Only a single Spec can spawn in a Foxtrot wave. Also, I’d argue the fact you get a “chance” for a spec slot is one of the biggest incentives to buying Foxtrot over more resources. Otherwise, there is less incentive to buy something that might net you 3 marines with 2 of them going into cryo.
If Scouts murdering half dead xenos is genuinely at a point where dozens of aliens are losing their lives, then put up an Idea Guys to make Scouts lose cloak on melee hits. It’d be an easy change. I personally don’t percieve it to be an issue due to the fact it’s one dude who may or may not be aggressive enough to even do it, but I am just one rando who never gets to play Spec due to bad RNG.
If Scouts murdering half dead xenos is genuinely at a point where dozens of aliens are losing their lives, then put up an Idea Guys to make Scouts lose cloak on melee hits. It’d be an easy change. I personally don’t percieve it to be an issue due to the fact it’s one dude who may or may not be aggressive enough to even do it, but I am just one rando who never gets to play Spec due to bad RNG.
MEANWHILE THE EDGE CASE LURKER SHOVING GOT SLAPPED WITH A CRIPPLING NERF.
You’re so close to realizing why we have such beef with this and yet so far.
Yeah, I got lucky. Had I ran into a single decent marine on my way back to hydro road I’d be dead because I briefly bumped into another mob. The second video just showcases the issue how random marine movements can suddenly lead to losing cloak - sure it wont kill you every single time, but it’ll still suck that one time it does.
Would be funny to slow down marines everytime they bump into each other for the serverwide lurker experience.
Also yeah, good point that the change doesn’t even fix the issue - cloaked lurkers stealthing into a position to push you from. If the marine was capable of dealing with that they would already have before this change was made.
Lurkers should have their invisibility flicker for a moment when bumping into a marine, but still be able to do their pounce ambush.
I’d even be for scout flickering when a xeno bumps into them. I think melee scout is dumb, and they should use their cool gun more as a gun then a poke stick.
I like the idea of invisible classes needing to not get bumped into to maintain their camouflage as it adds a little more thought to hide with them. I also like the idea of a stealth caste going “oh no they’re going to bump into me” and resting to avoid this.
I’ll be the first to admit my vision is dogshit when I’m searching for cloaked enemies. I can hardly ever see scout, barely see preds, but I can usually spot a cloaked lurker.
Resting to avoid being spotted means your stealth needs to be near perfect provided you don’t bump into something, or you WILL Get shot to death.
You usually see the movement made by the invisible players, but if yo ur e moving it can be very difficult to notice.
Maybe we could move back towards how old lurker cloak worked the, where you’d toggle stalk on to sacrifice some move speed or stand still to cloak further.
Invisible classes still need to be able to be spotted some how, the level of difficulty is very subjective to the player. I personally think their level of cloak is currently fine, and having the restrain of not bumping into a member of an enemy faction will not break either of the groups using invisibility.
A flicker on bump lets the other player know there is a threat, but they can still lose track of it. You’d need to plan you sneaking a bit better to avoid being bumped into which is usually pretty easy for invisible players because they tend to be fairly fast.
That’s the cool thing, major pucker factor for invisible castes if they’re resting to not be spotted.
I think the difference is that a cloaked lurker is often operating in environments where spotting it is easier (off weeds), plus marine vision is far more constrained than a xeno or predator, so a marine spotting a blur at the edge of their limited view is far more likely than a xeno spotting a cloaked target wherein 99% of the time they see their targets the exact second they enter their visual radius.
Also, marines are typically far more hyper focused on trying to spot enemies than xenos are, as this is because normally xenos have 100% thermal vision and can always spot all enemies when they enter their screen. Xenos rarely have reason to be checking for cloaked players.
In my subjective experience as a Predator, I find that Marines are far better at spotting a cloaked Pred to the point if I stand right at the edge of light vision some Marine will point me out or shoot me, whereas Aliens will often utterly ignore or fail to notice a Predator that is standing right next to them.
The difference is in alpha levels - lurker cloak is more visible than scout etc. It was changed at some point but I dont remember whether scout was made harder to spot or lurker easier.
Likely a combination of the two. But the fact Marines are reguarly checking for cloaked enemies means they are far more likely to spot them versus Xenos who rarely need to check for cloaked enemies AND who use a vision system that grants them complete vision of all enemies.
In this image there is a cloaked Predator, Lurker and Scout standing next to each other. The lurker is slightly more visible but not by a huge margin. All parties are easier to spot when moving.
Malding about queen building walls on nodes being removed is silly, and if I had known about this while I was devmanager I would have instantly removed it too. It’s unintuitive (for both the queen and the Marines) and nullifies how weed nodes are meant to work.
It reminds me of how people used to be able to lase through walls, which was equally stupid, so I also removed it, and it provoked equally massive amounts of mald (people saying it would permakill cas) - but ultimately little changed, lasing just became more consistent and worked as it should.
Also it’s funny to see people want shorter rounds now when in my day the rage was all over increasing them
You can bodyblock xenos to prevent them from escaping. I’ve seen how T3s and Queens fall for it and die. It’s very effective because xenos rely on their ability to safely retreat. Although I am not complaining, I think it’s an interesting and clever use of scout, but nerfing lurker and ignoring this is hypocrisy.
I don’t think anyone malding over removing ability to place nodes under walls. The problem is the way devs «fixed» it — by creating more issues for xenos. Now to build a single wall you need either: place a node next to the place you want to build a wall, wait for ages until weds expand, build OR place a node, build a wall, lose node immediately, place another node, build another wall etc.
Maybe it sounds like a minor issue for you, but it’s not. Imagine building walls in combat. Imagine having to spend extra plasma to place nodes every time. You still wanna call this malding? Again, we had an issue. But by fixing the issue devs simply created more issues, but for the other side. Likely there was a better way to fix this issue, for example, you could make nodes be visible on walls. But devs couldn’t be arsed to think it through for some reason.
Same happened here with lurker. We had an issue, but by solving it devs just created more problems for lurker, despite the fact there were clearly better ways to solve the issue without fucking over the whole caste.
