I’m still in favour of renaming this to “Xeno cope thread” and moving it to Acid Goop.
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Thanks for taking the time to respond chief.
I know a lot of this thread is cope, but there is also a fair bit of valid feedback. Granted I don’t expect y’all to sift through this cesspit to find it, but at the least I was hoping you guys would get a general sense/idea of what the long term effects of some of these changes have resulted in.
As you’ve told me previously, winrate does not equate balance. In the same breath you’d also previously stated that while the winrate is more balanced, the game still doesn’t feel good. I wholeheartedly agreed with that take.
Can’t speak for everyone, but at the end of the day I don’t care who wins or loses. I just want to have fun when playing.
At the moment though, it just feels like a disproportionate number of changes to one side that have become increasingly less thought out are just making it painful to play one of the two factions.
Xenos are outnumbered, outranged, outclassed in terms of firepower and support available to them, outclassed in terms of endgame options, have a higher skill ceiling as individuals, and now lose to attrition, even though it was supposed to be the other way around.
For example, take the warrior nerf. You wanted to make warrior more bearable to play against right? Because it was annoying to get grabbed from a different postal address and yeeted to Brazil. I don’t entirely disagree with it; but in contrast, marines still have at least half a dozen different ways of killing xenos that are equally unbearable, with little to no counterplay.
CAS has millisecond warning for example. Mortar has NO warning if it’s fired directly on a laser apparently. SADAR will instagib you from the edge of the screen. Foxtrot spam can lead to 3 SADARs on the field at once, and ironically enough leads to marines getting more lives than xenos sometimes. Sniper is horrendous to play against. Just off the top of my head; I made a list of marineside things that need rebalancing, in my opinion as someone who has been on the receiving end of them often:
With my very limited knowledge on balance, even I feel some of those things need a rework. They’re all very infuriating to play against. It’s just sad to see all of those getting ignored in favor of one more xeno nerf that makes playing another caste all that more unenjoyable.
Lurker nerf addressed what is more or less a nonissue, or a very minute one at most. And the amount of problems it creates for the caste far outweigh the solution. As others have stated here, there are other, far more nuanced solutions that could have been implemented if y’all had taken the time to think it through, testmerge it or accept any community feedback. But you speedmerged it in a span of 3 days because you knew people would complain about it like every other nerf; nonetheless, that doesn’t make the complaints raised any less valid.
I’m not happy about the ravager nerf, but at the very least it’s still somewhat balanced;
-It doesn’t kill the entire caste and make it horrendously unplayable, partly because it was developed by a prime ravager with extensive knowledge regarding the mechanics of that specific caste, as well as extensive practical hands-on in-game experience playing that caste, and the issues that arise with it.
-It also led to a rework of hedgehog to make that more useful, so it wasn’t just another caste of taking one more thing away from xenos, we actually got something back in return for a change.
As I said in my first reply to you in here, if you want to make heavy nerfs to a caste, at the very least consult somebody who has extensive experience playing that caste instead of just doing whatever “feels right”. Not to put words in your mouth, but I have no idea how you’re making balance decisions. Your reasoning for the lurker nerf was “it’s cheesy” so like ¯_(ツ)_/¯. Maybe you have 100 hours in lurker, and this was a perfectly reasonable and well thought out change, but if it wasn’t, once again I plead you reconsider your approach to that issue.
Same applies to numerous other changes. You nerfed warrior on a whim when you yourself stated you weren’t sure of how you wanted to do it, and made no promise of any proper rework to the caste in the future.
Y’all denied the one new strain xenos had gotten because many marine players expressed outrage and general annoyance at having to fight it, while ignoring the outrage raised at numerous things from xeno players. In the process we also lost one of the only people actually coding things for xenos.
Y’all nerfed xenos being able to drag bodies, simply ignoring points brought up of how it is the only counterplay to powerful stims. Now marines get stun immunity and can run faster than runners most rounds. But one drone in one game overdosed on alacatrit, and that was fixed the next day. I hope these examples might clarify why lots of people in the community feel there is a misbalance of representation/allocation of priorities in terms of balancing for both sides.
And look, I get it, y’all do all this for free; I understand that, and we appreciate all the work you put into making this game run. If nobody on the dev team is interested in coding decent things for xenos, that’s fine. But if that’s the case, don’t go out of your way to code things in that are uncalled for relative to the general QOL degradation they lead to.
Don’t wanna come off rude, but I guess to put it bluntly, don’t half-ass everything. If y’all wanna rework major things about xenos, do it like DOR did and give it some actual proper thought, listen to the community feedback. If you don’t wanna invest time to make things for xenos, don’t invest just enough time to get the few things xenos have to a state of decay, and then abandon them.
-Rebalance some things marine-side to make playing xeno more bearable relative to all the recent nerfs.
-Find an alternative to the lurker pushing issue, as others have suggested, make the invis flicker, or simply don’t let them push people. Or if you wanna keep it the way it is, significantly reduce the cooldown for invis, or increase the invisibility, or allow them to stunpounce when not cloaked. Idk, just spitballing.
-Make nodes visible on top of walls if it was such an issue. Or just leave it be. Or reduce cost of nodes. Or severely decrease CD for placing nodes on ovi.
-Put a piece of intel in LV caves, I swear that alone would probably alleviate the whole nuke on LV issue.
-Bring back public feedback forums, and actually use them.
I just wrote these all down off the top of my head, and many others have good ideas too; I’m certain if just a bit more time was taken in thinking out/implementing nerfs, and maybe a bit of community feedback was accepted, they could easily be properly balanced in a way that doesn’t have everyone malding. Because
Sure, it doesn’t feel good. But presently I don’t think people are as upset about individual nerfs, as they are about the way the nerfs are being carried out with regards to the development process, as well as the lack of communication, willingness to accept feedback, or representation of community interests. Aren’t you guys doing this for the community? That’s what I believe, that you have the best interests of the community at heart in all the decisions you make. With that said, I hope seeing a good chunk of the community blatantly upset at the changes being made would raise some flags, or cause y’all to reconsider your approach to some things. That’s all I can hope for at least, mass outrage can be considered feedback unto itself; if you’d rather just categorize it all as “cope” and ignore it though, that’s up to y’all I guess.
Sorry for the rant, figured this was the one chance I’d get to give y’all feedback. Hope you’d be willing to take some of these things into consideration. If you made it to the end of this, thanks for taking the time to hear me out!
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LOLOL THEY NERFED WARROIR, RAV, BURROWER, QUEEN, LURKER, CRUSHER ALL FOR THE TOP 1% OF PLAYERS.
Good for thee but not for me! mindset at its finest.
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The game has been getting nerfed for the top 1% of the players. Cass Men singlehandedly getting the dual MOU + a-grip nerfed is the biggest example.
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CAS warning is only ever short for direct strikes iirc. There‘s plenty for fire missions
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Mortar doesn’t fire on lazes and has gigantic warnings akin to an OB. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
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SADAR doesn’t gib anyone or anything unless they use (actually good) OT rockets and hit within 1-3 tiles of a Tier 1-2. SADAR‘s normal rockets do little except allow for followup damage from other Marines. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
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If you get to the point where you have had to call in 2 Foxtrots then it means you haven’t gotten the nuke as an opportunity cost. It also means, due to this, that the Marines must not have a goid foothold or else CIC would just get the nuke and the second comms tower. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
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Sniper can literally not do anything if you don’t go out alone and if you don’t charge out of xeno fortifications to the point where other Marines can pursue and kill. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
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1st of all slow your roll
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It does not matter how long the warning is if CAS can run two screens wide to where even if it says SE it is actually moving SW. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
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Saying that sadar gibbing t1-t2s, that’s over sometimes 85% of the xeno force for clicking not even on them but within up to 3 tiles away? LOL, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
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Having 3 dudes that can’t click that just have to click within 3 tiles of a majority of your force isn’t strong? Since when? You don’t know what you’re talking about.
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Sniper can do 1/3rd of the queen’s health with marked and spotter. Flak is extremely potent against the side that needs mobility to function to do anything. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Did I miss anything sweetie?
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Point 1, what are you talking about?
Point 2, CAS runs 12 tiles, and good CAS runs don’t usually stretch that long to avoid missing targets or spreading firepower too far apart. You get a lot of warning of a CAS in-between the actual lase/flare and the very loud sound, I’d say its a case of poor positioning if you get caught in a CAS. You only really fall for a CAS if either you are not paying attention or you are stuck in CQC hell.
Point 3, while HE is strong against T1s, I’d argue from a logistics point of view that you will find it is extremely uneconomical for RPGs to expend their rockets on T1s. Each rocket is very expensive to replace and generally they want to save them for high value T2 and T3 targets. If a RPG is firing their rockets at T1s then either they are new or the T1 has done something to warrant being a high value target.
Furthermore, only the Runner will die instantly to a HE rocket, everything else survives and won’t fall into crit, the strength of a HE is more in the ability to let other’s finish off a stunned target.
Point 4, what are you talking about? Foxtrot only gets a maximum of 1 specialist spawn, it is fairly rare to see a single Foxtrot spawn being used let alone three. If the Marines have reached a point where they have somehow saved enough intel for 3 Foxtrot spawns, then they should’ve won the game by then. Though considering most Foxtrot spawns give you only 1 to 3 marines, its arguable if the marines are better off spending the intel on a nuke or more req points.
Point 5, you don’t actually know what you are talking about. A sniper firing an aimed shot with standard rounds deals 210 damage, with 50 AP. Meaning it’d take off less than 1/4th of a queen’s health. Spotters don’t increase damage, the time to aim also makes this a prohibitive factor, and the bullets don’t travel through xenos so anyone bodyblocking will tank the bullet.
Also, of course flak is powerful, but it deals no real damage, if anything it will murder marines if they get too close.
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jesus christ this thread is still going.
xeno mains coping hard, maybe you should get better at the game instead of demanding gameplay changes to suit your own playstyle.
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CAS saying its dropping SW and then going east has nothing to do with if you hear it or not. There’s also an bunch of people saying that there is no queue right now. Could be a bug. Play both sides.
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We are not talking about HE. Please read before you comment. We are talking about OT ROCKETS. OT rockets 1 shot T1s and T2s, and no OT rockets aren’t “expensive” since they are printed in the OT room. Please read what we are saying.
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Multiple foxtrot calls. Once again read what we are talking about.
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Yes. Yes marksman ammo + marked shot + spotter does do 1/3rd of the queens health. Hello queen main here, I am very vividly aware of how much of my HP is being chunked by two monkeys playing cookie clicker 3 screens away. Flak also does do damage. Just because its not 1/3rd of your HP damage does not mean it “doesn’t do damage.” Read the next time before you comment. Thanks.
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OT rockets are quite strong but generally will only one hit if you land a direct, or near direct, hit. Its also incredibly rare for me to see them in the field, and generally they will deploy grenades which are far more common to use, or they’ll make suicide C4 for the holdout.
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My point on Foxtrot stands. You get 1 Spec per call, each call is very expensive, generally you don’t get many marines to spawn in, and the amount of intel needed to spawn one means if the marines are calling three Foxtrots then the round should’ve ended a long time ago as the cost is very prohibitive.
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You are arguing from gut feeling. I am arguing from mechanical certainty and fact. Queens have 1000 health, a aimed marksman shot deals 210 damage. A queen will be reduced to 790 health if shot by a aimed marksman shot. That is far closer to 1/5th of their health than 1/3rd.
An aimed flak shot deals 108 damage, but has no penetration. Assuming no other buffs the queen has 25 armour reducing this to 83 damage, which is less than 1/10th of her health. ALSO an aimed flak shot deals no AOE damage, so a body blocking xeno can tank those hits.
I’d also argue the point of a sniper is to discourage xenos to run across open ground without support.
How about you take your condescending attitude and fuck off?
You can have up to 3 sadars in a round, if you have killed the earlier one you can potentially have 3 dudes using OT rockets 1 shotting 85% of your force within 3 tiles. No it does not have to be a direct hit, you just have to hit within 3 tiles. Especially if you have the good OT main on. Play the game.
Yes, and I’m telling you - you’re wrong. I remember the last time someone tried to gaslight me into thinking I’m wrong. I believe it was when I said hornets could 1 shot t3s. That’s 800 dmg, and guess what…I was right - no matter how much you say “erm erm erm erm but.” Doesn’t change what I see the values changing to with my eyes. Now mind you at one point hornets where bugged, and then they did double damage. But I trust my eyes over your garbling.
Foxtrot being “expensive” depends on the map. Most maps it is not.
Sorry that you’re wrong. Are you mad that you are idly commenting on things we aren’t even talking about. Its not my fault you did not read before commenting. Blame yourself.
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Do you beno mains and marine mains have nothing better to do (sleep, eat, easily forgotten as hostage of some funny two-decade old spessman game where you just click sprites until they go horizontal) than arguing about if some funny OT maxcap instakills or how much damage flak deals or how to powergame foxtrot into five sadars or how much warning time there is or how many screens you can burn down with CAS?
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It is never going to end. The salt must flow.
If you walk as much as 3 tiles out you’re going to eat the sniper shot - you can’t play the game with the overbuffed spec around.
1-3 tiles gib t3s.
lol. you want to kill t1 and t2 with HE because it locks slots. get good. but ye current normal rockets aint much of an issue, its the fact over half the rounds sadar deploys with instagib wide AoE OT rockets.
aimed shot flak doesnt ff. why are you even itt if you dont play the game?
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Is this including spotter?
At following video distance - spotter + laser = 0.9s, laser alone = 1.4-1.5s. Cba to look up frames on the rest, you can check yourself Sniper speed
since I was playing around I tested DPS a bit - keep in mind the close you are the faster it is and you can safely do this within screen range of the rav (hopefully zoom distance 2x/4x switching doesnt impact RoF?)
sniper combo
sniper combo flak start
Not sure if people are talking about spotter for the aim time but a spotter’s laze only reduces aimed shot cast time for the sniper, no damage buff from it.
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People accusing me of not knowing the gameplay mechanics before claiming the sniper magically deals 1/3rd of the queen’s health in damage clearly strikes me as a case of people being too emotional in their argument to think logically.
Non-aimed flak does FF marines as it strikes targets in a 3x3 square around whoever you strike, and is in fact the only way for a Sniper to FF.
I should note that while Sniper can be a powerful spec, the problem arises that most xenos are not stupid and will return to cover the moment they start catching lasers. The moment a sniper shows their hand the xenos are going to be actively ensuring they are near cover to reduce the risks of being struck. I am not denying the Sniper spec is powerful, but that it can be worked around.
The concept that Xenos are being regularly mowed down by the dozens by a stationary sniper is difficult to believe.
Over exaggeration, from my experience it is quite rare for OT to mass produce max-cap rockets. Most of the time the OT has no idea what they are doing, or they make dud explosive ammo. Its far more common they try to produce OT grenades or mines, which can be used by anyone.
I won’t deny that a max-cap HE rocket is quite powerful but its not some endemic problem where every round the OT is laying out the red carpet with 20 maxcap rockets ready to go before first drop.
Its difficult enough to get the OT to make a good grenade let alone a good rocket.
The only map that is good for intel is LV-624, for most other maps intel acquisition is far more difficult and easier to disrupt based on back liners and the competence of the IOs. I am not denying that it may be theoretically possible for CIC to spawn multiple Foxtrot waves, but from my experience and from a tactical sense it is incredibly rare for this to occur due to the very high cost of buying Foxtrot multiple times (which become even more expensive every time you buy it) but also with how hard it can be to accrue intel.
Log on to a offline server and test the sniper then. You’ll find I am correct in my statements.
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no one was talking about non-aimed though since its a non-issue and weak. The one people have a problem with is the aimed one because of the tremendous slow.
He can just stop firing for a time and then continue catching xenos off guard.
Suddenly taking 220 damage or having your movement speed halved is obviously going to lead to people dying because xenos are all about health/risk management and you cannot plan for a dude 2 screens away.
Play the game. It keeps happening round after round to the point where it’s rarer that RPG doesn’t deploy with OT rockets than it is for him to deploy with them. Though I ain’t counting 80 pop rounds and general lowpop into this.
The problem exists regardless of how often this happens mind you. The sensible thing to do (aside from removing the role or the casing) would be to restrict the casings from having AoE so they function as AP+ rockets - at least that way it can be argued he’s earned it by hitting.
even a single foxtrot gets you a 2nd sadar, which is already an issue. same with multiple snipers or GLs. Restricted roles should have never been a part of foxtrot.
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