Personally, I think runner and lurker are quite bad at soloing a pred, you have barely any health, and your most valuable tool, your pounce, is super nerfed against preds.
I think spitter/boiler are likely in a similar boat, when you’re off cooldown you’re just slow and toothless. But it’s even worse since you can’t run away like runner/lurker can.
Are preds targeting castes like that just stroking their ego with easy kills?
Lurker is decent if you know your way around, especially base, the slowdown slash is crippling.
Base praetorian because of the spammable acid and alike.
Warrior if you know how to sprite click
thats all I could come up with
vanguard, warrior, vamp lurker in that order
base prae isn’t bad and I haven’t really seen despoilers fight preds but it might be insane
also preds can’t attack boilers
Boxer.
As xeno spawns in HG the most pred kills I got were with a warrior. Your kit is made for 1v2ing preds to death with ease. Your flings do not give you any penalty for just spam clicking them and slow preds for a pretty long time which you can use to get a free lunge and some good hits in. Get two semi competent warriors and that pred won’t have any chances of winning. (ALSOO YOUR HEALTHVAMP ON SLASHES HELPS YOU TANK MUCH MORE DAMAGE)
dancers do an okay job sometimes. ravs really aren’t a threat at all because they’re so easy to click, crushers are way too slow to.
For the lurker bit, lurker only really does anything if a pred is fighting the entire hive. Because otherwise the pred can just face your direction and the pounce will just stun you (crippling strike slowdown needs the target to be stunned). So nah, never ever try to 1v1 a pred as base lurker unless you want to die doing 10% of their health as damage.
Be DP, solo 2 preds as Woy.
The worst combat caste vs pred is runner, because with low dmg + high volume attacks making up a majority of your dps, the Pred’s absurd melee armor reduces your potential dps significantly more then any other caste. Altho im sure you could sneak in 1 or 2 extra slashes while a pred is on melee cooldown, the risk far outweighs the benefits.
The lower your base dmg, the more that armor reduces your dmg.
You may be capable of hitting them 10 times to 1 but that doesn’t really matter because it takes like 80 slashes to kill them and they will probs be able to run away or kill u in time. Most rounys will struggle to hit them 5 times for every hit they take, and usually depending on terrain preds can make the fight significantly in their favor by reducing movement options which often makes it even more difficult for a rouny to win.
Altho a pred moves at like rouny speed anyways, so with enough skill they could probs not need to limit your movement and may be disadvantaged themselves by limiting their movement too. But most likely, it is easier for them to stand still and predict your movements in order to hit you - not to say its not stronger to move and hit, its just more difficult to do that.
Boiler or hivelord. The predator will be afraid and unwilling to kill you incase of deWL
Nope, runner atleast has speed, so you can kite the predator and in theory hit them that 80 times while running around on weeds regenerating health with him never catching you. Tail stab adds 20% damage and is ranged. You could also use bone spur to slow that pred even more if you are on weeds, maybe risk pounce.
The worst (direct combat) caste against preds is Sentinel, spits barerly do anything alongside sting and they are slow.
Second worst is Defender. And I speak from experience. You are slow, xeno armor gets bypassed by melee and your only trick up your sleeve is tailsweep each 10 seconds. Slow, barerly 5 more damage than runner, other abilities also suck and have a long cooldown.
Predators are almost incapable of losing to most of the xeno castes even if they follow their honor code. Only T3s (except boiler) and warrior have any (or fair) chance. Especially against T1s. If you see a pred fighting T1/spitter/lurker/drone evolutions with his armor on and with his primary melee weapon, you know he doesn’t want a fair fight, but to satisfy his murderboner. There is no way in hell you will get +/- 50 slashes on a pred without dying as defender.
Sentinel I don’t count as a combat caste but ya its worse
Defender is better then rouny vs pred because it has headbutt + tailswipe. This works very well with groups too and terrain while rouny suffers massively without ideal terrain (hidey spots, tables, window frames, etc) and lacks safe dmg dealing options except for tail stab… which is not really viable for killing preds even if they can’t do much about it, because it deals such little dmg.
If you go in for a slash you are still decently likely to get hit depending on the skill of the pred - keep in mind theres only so much you can do as Rouny to avoid getting hit. If they just predict your on that tile on that moment, you will get hit and you are only 2 hits from being unable to fight the pred, and they have like a billion health in comparison to you.
So while defender may hit a brick wall eventually on average because of its larger hitbox and slower speed and no healing - it will deal more dmg overall then rouny, since while rouny can potentially (depending on your luck is the main thing! not exclusively on skill) deal more dmg, it probably won’t because Headbutt exists and is basically a AP homing ranged attack with knockback. A defender will be effectively hit less frequently then a runner if it just runs away from the pred because it doesnt have to get in danger to attack - while still maintaining a good distance.
And with enough skill you can even get good enough at this to actualy just beat preds normally, using headbutt, using pure skill and not needing to gamble as much that the pred will not hit you.
Spitter might actualy be worse then rouny vs pred tbh.
I never really had an issue with runners, especially since glaive shuts down any attempts at kiting, you can anticipate them coming back for a hit and you can get a cheap shot in if you click right
Tailswipe has 10 seconds cooldown and deals like 20 damage (negated further by pred armor). While headbutt might be a homing missle, it just pushes even marines just few tiles, no stun, or even slow. And it just does 20 dmg with 5 AP and adds 8 armor bypassing damage if you headbutt them into a wall etc. And pred has effectively 300 HP.
Sure if you as defender and pred stay in the same spot and click eachother with abilities and pure harm intent, you will do more damage to that pred than a runner in the same situation due to having more slash dmg and more HP. But in combat scenario where you both can move, predator will always catch you immediately and he will use the fact that he could outtank the damage of even several defenders standing in a neat row, each starting to fight after previous died. There is no skill expression, there is nothing you could do to with a predator 1vs1 as defender. Pred will always run up to you and outtank your damage.
But it is possible as runner that you could outskill a pred, you would have to be a god runner with 30 ping and constantly on weeds with tables around, but there is a chance. Defender can’t do anything, give pred simple mob AI and find the best defender player on the entire server. He won’t win even a single fight unless he finds a way to abuse simple mob AI by getting it stuck on something and then spamming tail slam.
If you never really had any issues with runners, then try to describe fighting singular defenders. I’m here discussing a hypotetical scenario, runner has a potential chance to 1vs1 a pred if he plays like a god, defender doesn’t.
You get hit by a tailsweep + headbutt combo, you wake up from a short stun and miniscule damage, then you just run into him slashing, get hit by another headbutt and you kill him before cooldown for tailsweep and another headbutt ends.
With runner atleast you have to anticipate when they come back and you can get a cheapshot if you click right. He could just always keep the distance of 1 tile for tail stabs and use bone spurs to slow you down, while always fighting on weeds etc. That vs just run at defender and click till horizontal, because you are always way faster than defender, even on weeds.
From my experience watching and fighting preds, I can say the following (all 1v1s).
Tier 1
Drones - Dead meat. It only happens if you spawn as one on the hunting grounds, piss of a pred, or get an abomb. There is no fighting or running you could do that could matter.
Sentinel - You are a drone with -50 hp.
Runner - You are about 4-5 hits away from death, and your pounce and slow does 0. You are just slightly better than drone.
Defender - You are going to fight the pred for about 10 minutes until you die, and then you scan them and see you dealt about 40 damage.
Tier 2
Burrower - You get an AOE stun every 10 minutes, and the pred can cancel your tunnel by pushing you.
Hivelord - Better than drone, but still dead meat.
Carrier - Decent health, but no actual use found with it. Unless you are fighting a maskless pred, you are again, dead meat.
Warrior - One of the best castes. Others have said what I can.
Spitter - You can de-invis preds with the line attack, otherwise you are a senti that deals 4 damage with their spit. Useless.
Lurker - You have a singular ability that is needed for your entire kit, and the predator is immune. Best you can do is invis and play hide and seek.
Vamp - You have decent lifesteal still, but the stun is mostly removed. Caste hasn’t been played lately, but i still remember GOD winning 4 1v1s in a row with no weeds with it.
Tier 3
Boiler - You will die before you get to shoot the glob. Drone dead meat tier.
Despoiler - Unknown
Crusher - Surprisingly decent? Decent damage, and the AOE ministun slow is really good. Saw a crusher just facetank a pred while they continued to hit eachother without moving and win.
Preatorian - Spitter that deals more base damage. Not worth it.
Vanguard - Upgraded warrior in terms of abilities, that trades lifesteal for the one hit shield.
Dancer - Amazing potential, but so rarely used that nobody wants to play it nor learn it.
Valk - Lifesteal is okay and has a neat ministun, but should only be used supporting a hive on predator fight.
Rav - Your kit is based on fighting multiple people, otherwise your abilities are mediocre at best.
Zerker - Good damage, lifesteal, and CC. The best rav will be overshadowed by the best warrior, but really good regardless.
Thats my view on them atleast.
Drone unironically does way better vs pred then rouny. Sticky resin, walls, and healing (from resin) is pretty useful and its easier to hit tailstabs since you are moving slower and can have the speed advantage using sticky resin to both protect yourself and create positive terrain. Your bodypushes are very powerful as Drone because of your positive terrain advantage. Alongside having a small sprite
Drone is genuinely not a half bad pred fighter. Hivelord is significantly worse despite having a reduced build speed.
Carrier can block pred hits using facehuggers - since facehuggers layer over your sprite. And weeds allow you to heal
The pred will move predictably if they are moving towards you, while you are more capable of dodging if you are moving away. Alongside this, you have a much easier time hitting them then they have hitting you, as well as bodypushing and dodging them to throw off their rhythm. That is the advantage of the defending person during positioning - and with headbutt you can basically gaurantee hits without getting hit back. Rouny cannot, and because of speed advantage it’s basically impossible to be in the defending position as Rouny - you cannot move slow enough for a pred to be the one initiating thus they have an advantage in hitting you, Rouny can’t play the defensive position by slowing down as rouny cannot afford to use its HP as a resource - and effectively, it makes the speed of rouny useless by doing this, making it just as good as a Defender who is also not very slow compared to a pred.
Defensive positions especially with open escape routes as well as covering terrain also challenge an opponent even more as it blocks diagonal strikes or followup attacks - it can also hinder you by making it take longer to run away.
Alongside your weak HP and 0 armor and dealing 2 dmg per slash you are basically useless as rouny vs pred. The theoreatical possibility is that the pred doesn’t know the matchup or gets unrealistically unlucky (because believe it or not, most of rouny’s skill ceiling is just to narrowly reduce a chance of getting hit - the chance is still there, and against the right strategy it gets exponentially more difficult to reduce). For defender, a headbutt is extremely powerful especially since a defender can move and knockback diagonally with it. It’s just a very strong ability in general.
What can be said is rouny will almost always escape from a predator if they want to. While a rouny can’t kill a pred, a pred can’t easily kill a rouny since they lack ranged options to gaurantee a KO - and a rouny always picks its fights. But a defender will do much more dmg before its forced to heal - it can kill a pred with good enough play, although it is an uphill battle just by the nature of the matchup, but much more consistent.
Lets say too, you want to have a fair fight which lasts a reasonable amount of time. I’d say it usually takes twice as long to kill a Pred with runner then it does as Defender. So to win as runner is a much greater challenge because you must open yourself to much more hits and thus its not worth saying it’s “better vs preds”.
The lack of healing on dancer is what keeps it back tbh. You have to really ration your resources to win.
Tailstab literally is what you describe, not headbutt. You still have to make contact with a pred to deal him little to no damage and push him 3 tiles away, the distance he will close in in less than a second, leaving you with 3 seconds till you can headbutt again.
Did you just literally say that you can’t just slow down as a runner and that is somehow a disadventage that outweights your speed adventage?
Nonsense. You can move slower as a runner, either hit that “stalk” button, or just click your movement keys every once in a while instead of holding it down.
Defender also can’t afford using its HP as a resource, because he doesn’t have a way to regenerate it. In extended fight runner could be running away from pred on weeds and regenerate that way, or hide and rest for a while, defender can’t. Also pred is faster than defender even on weeds.
As a defender it is predator who decides when he faces you, not the other way around, because he is much faster than you are, even on weeds. All of those “tactics” and other stuff you claim about “defensive positions” and “open escape routes” is meaningless, predator is faster than defender, you can’t escape something that can outrun and outtank you.
Nonsense. You are slower, your “dodging” predator as a defender is sidesteping two tiles, while he moves four. Your “bodypushing” him is just letting him hit you with his weapon. Your “using HP as a resource” is just getting killed. As soon as your sprite is on the tile next to a pred and he is not stunned, you are getting hit. Defender literally can’t win 1vs1 against a pred in his full regular honorable gear. Predator isn’t a bullet you can dodge and he is forced to move further to lose momentum, as soon as you sidestep, he does it too. Runner has atleast a hypotetical chance to win.
Yeah, definatelly unlike defender who maybe has slightly more than twice the HP, armor that is almost, or straight up completly bypassed by melee and dealing 3 dmg per slash.
No and I will die on that hill. As a defender in 1vs1 scenario it is impossible to win against predator that isn’t like an elder (CM staff) neverplayer and even then. There isn’t even a hypotetical scenario where even a noob player as a predator could lose to the most sweaty defender.
Where there could be a real debate is if predator takes off his armor and maybe even uses ceremonial dagger on top, then defender vs runner against pred makes sense.
its just the hp combined with the lack of dmg, you will die if you try to fight a pred with intent to kill as rouny. Or it will take forever and youll have to run and heal probably. Try it yourself.
defender does like twice as much dmg as rouny while remaining more safe and having more hp. It just risks getting hit more since it doesn’t control the engagement - but that doesn’t matter in a 1v1 without heals because ultimately the amount of hits you get off is considering the chance to get a successful hit compared to the chance of the enemy to get a successful hit and comparing that to get your hits to getting hit ratio.
Rouny simply does less dmg and has less hp and worse abilities and must spend more to get hits off. and gets less for getting hits too. A theoreatically perfect defender will do better against more Pred players then a theoreatically perfect rouny, because the pred can counterplay the rounys speed pretty easily and consistently due to the low hp and armor of the runner and lack of safety in its attacks (it leaves itself open everytime it strikes). The defender does not leave itself nearly as open when it strikes and also has tailswipe as a free attack or safety too to help as counterplay when a pred closes distance - it can also knockback diagonally.
headbutt knocks the target back 1 tile including diagonally. Tailstab does not, so it leaves you more open to getting counterattacked.
depends on the position. If you are moving away from a predator you will maintain your distance for much longer and thus have more abilities to use - you will output more attacks because of your strong abilities per dodge then a runner can. The amount of hits you get off compared to how much you get hit is higher as defender. and you can maintain your hitlessness for longer as defender then as runner.
But yeah you’re assuming an average pred player - i think given perfect situation a runner still loses more often then a defender. And in practice, a runner loses more often then a defender because defenders easier to get good at and just more effective against most players (because people don’t play perfectly)
Defenders not as slow as you think when your running, because the predator moves predictably and kinda slow at that point and it really just does take like a sidestep or two to throw their rhythm off and make distance
But yeah its the difference between the speeds that matters. The speed advantage of a pred is Pred speed - Defender speed, which means when a defenders running away, the pred will catch up depending on that speed when you calculate time between hit opportunities. This matters because 1: if a rouny tries to imitate this, it wont gain any advantage because it cant attack safely at range.
Actually nvm, rouny can attack safely with tailstab if the preds on movement cooldown or 2 tiles diagonal. But preds usually just stand still vs rouny until they get on movement cooldown so they can approach and get free hits off or predict and get free hits off. A defender in comparison can literally just headbutt and get a free hit off no matter what.
Either way chipping a pred to death with (base) rouny tailstab is going to be like a 15 minute fight minimum so its really just Not worth playing the game at that point. It’s a cheese strat that does exist but a pred won’t fight it if they can’t hit you because it’s boring so you won’t get the kill. Its easier at that point to just kill them as defender anyway, if their play is vulnerable to that strat.
It will take forever and you will have to run and heal, but you can win. Unlike defender, who is unable to keep this fight forever and potentialy win, he can only do more damage because he deals more damage and has more HP. Runner could potentialy never be hit, or be hit so rarely, he could outheal it by running away. And that is because you can keep your distance and runner, hit tailstabs and potentialy never be hit yourself. That is the runner adventage, you can run away from pred for eternity, you are faster than pred is, you have a ranged attack, if everything goes your way, if you play perfectly then you can win. You can’t as a defender, no matter what you do, no matter what abilities you will use, how much you dodge, or how much HP you have, predator will always outtank and outrun you and stab you to death. Runner can play cat and mouse and potentialy win.
In theory you could kite predator forever, use bone suprs to slow them down and then tailstab while being 100% safe, unless you make a mistake as runner. As defender sure you have twice as much HP and you deal slightly more damage, but you tailsweep once for 10 seconds cooldown, headbutt once for 4 seconds cooldown and predator is on your ass for 3 seconds before you can headbutt again. You can’t escape pred, he can just glue himself to your ass as a defender and kill you, runner can potentialy avoid that.
As a runner you can potentialy never give predator the chance to hit you, because tailstab and bone spurs are ranged.
But you are slower. If there is infinite 1 tile corridor and you both move as predictably as possible, predator will catch up with defender and there is nothing he can do about it, runner can keep his distance.
Pure nonsense. As a slower caste with bigger sprite you can maintain your “hitlessness” for longer than faster caste with smaller sprite. You can outrun predator as runner, you can’t do it as defender. Even if you pull some incredeble Neo-like dodges, predator is always on your ass, because you can’t outrun him and your abilities to push him back, or stun him have long cooldowns.
Tailstab is ranged, you can hit predator while standing two tiles away, if asrunner you maintain this distance you could kill a pred without getting hit once as predator can’t outrun you unless you make a mistake. Defender can’t, so he is forced to get hit, runner isn’t.
Wrong, runner can use tailstab which is ranged, also bone spurs, but they probably deal 0 damage to armored pred. Runner can hypotetically attack safely at range, it would require a runner god to keep that distance and not make too many mistakes.
There is a chance atleast, a hypotetical scenario. We are arguing here what caste is worst against preds, I argue that defenders don’t even have a hypotetical chance to win and runners have. Without outside factors like predator deciding it is boring, or game is not worth playing. Runner can potentialy kill a predator, defender can’t.
Defender is incapable of killing a fully geared honorable predator in 1vs1. Even if said predator was buckled to a chair with no way to be unbuckled and defender lost his tail slam, defender is incapable of winning.
So what, you headbutt once, push him 1 tile away, he runs at you and stabs you 3 times before you can headbutt again. What did you gained vs runner who tailstabs and runs way not being hit and doing that over and over?