Xeno Attack & Balance. XENO MAIN OPINIONS PLEASE

[birb]

@N.H.C

Yes, being fully removed from the round is by far better then being a bit slower until you ask the local fix bones guy to fix your bones. What are you smocking man? How did you manage to get a balance opinon that so fundematly fucked up.

Dying with a very high likelihood of getting revived w/o frac is better then living through a fight and being fracced.

Getting fracced means you can take roughly 10-15 minutes out of your round to fix it, needing to brave the backline aswell… or live with it, potentially snowballing into pain as splints come undone, extra fracs get applied, and being overall gimped by horrid extra slowdown even splinted… Both of these options are significantly worse then getting revived in 1-8 minutes or so, being on the front, and being healthy, ready to fight at full capacity afterwards.

Death is not that punishing for marines, unless you are perma’d. And you can take a lot of steps to avoid perma, if you just exist and make sure not to die in unusual spots or outside of groups.

Fracs on the other hand, are extremely punishing. That’s why, imo, it’s inherently worse to get fracced then to die.

So further, over time, you will die from whatever sources surround you, and it’s perfectly fine to do so, but the death won’t be NEARLY as punishing unless you have to deal with a frac, or a perma.

I do agree though, risking a perma is a lot more significant then risking a frac. But the play would be not to risk a perma to any significant degree unless you think it’s a good play and that the odds are in your favor. Deaths ≠ Perma unless you got extreme circumstances

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@N.H.C

I am very confused how you read “consistent damage” as a nerf. Its a buff for xenos rather. Well, more QoL.
Where did i even mention anything about a nerf? How did you get that idea?

If you add extra percent chance to miss limb targetting then it will take more slashes to bone break. If this is also based on extra RNG, then it will become more inconsistent.

One of these is a nerf, one of these is adding RNG to something that mostly isn’t RNG (and is already consistent).

(It will increase TTK because fracs are a significant contributer to paincrit, and more attacks would be dumped into chest or armored limbs. Idk how significant it would be in practice though, so maybe that point is moot, yeah.)

excerpt:

@N.H.C

And on the topic of limb targeting.
I would say keep it, but just make it like shooting. Where you do mainly hit the part your targeting, but with a good chance your hitting another part.
Add to that diffrent chances depending on what part your targeting, and you migth got something that works.

granted, as i said, theres like a 30% chance to miss and hit chest already. Although it evens out and still averages to around 4-6 slashes per frac, or 5-6 for a rouny.
post reads out like suggesting a nerf or adding bad gamefeel RNG though, idk.

[Sprdy]

why would the size of a sprite matter, the smallest xeno is still taller than all the marines

[Cabal]

@Sprdy

why would the size of a sprite matter, the smallest xeno is still taller than all the marines

Well, xeno “size” is a totally legitemate system ingame and sprites are made to express that in a way, however not 100% correctly.
Anything that significantly outgrows one tile vertically is immune to small stuns (buckshot/slug), with the exception of normal state defender and warrior.
Xeno size governs what damage they can do to APC, or a wall. While it is disguised by text stating you need sharper claws, or something, it is not that.
Regular defender can’t do much more to APC than drone can, but all it takes is to lower your crest and you can damage it further.

And the “realistic” logic dictate that the bigger the xeno, the more strenght it has. Since game already has a system to kinda measure xeno strenght… Random google search states that regular xeno drone weights between 140 to 180 kg.

[atticus-rezzer]

It’s game feel.

Like if you fought a rabbit, and shot it with a 12 gauge, it should be obliterated.
but if it just bounced off, and then ripped your head off, okay cool that’s funny, but doesn’t make sense.

The “small” xenos look about human size, so they at least to me “feel” like they’re about human in most respects.
They’re aliens so yeah, they’re a bit stronger.

sorry my internet fucked up, but yeah @Cabal is on the same page.
If it looks like a big scary monster it should be a big scary monster.
If it looks like a small scary monster, it should be a small scary monster.
In the psychology of a player.
“Should” being theoretical based on a “sense of disbelief.” or something

[Sprdy]

not really true though, most praes cant even scratch walls while warriors can, drone evos and defender can open walls while warrior cant, and probably a lot more inconsistencies like that

[atticus-rezzer]

the current implementation vs the perception of the player may differ.

[Rena]

@Cabal

Xeno size governs what damage they can do to APC, or a wall. While it is disguised by text stating you need sharper claws, or something, it is not that.

For slashing walls it actually is based off claw sharpness. Lurker can slash walls for example (but not tear open holes) while crest-down defender can tear open holes but not slash the wall to create them in the first place.

[Cabal]

@Sprdy

defender can open walls

Regular defender can’t, “lowered crest” defender can, because all “lower crest” does is changes his “size” in code and this correspond to opening walls and stun immunities.
Drone evos besides burrower are “microstun” immune due to “size” I presume and that is why they can tear open walls with holes.
There are inconsistencies like I mentioned, but as a general rule of thumb it works. Exclude regular state defender and warrior and the rest of the spritework matches.
Now to think about it more, Crusher doesn’t outgrow his tile vertically, but you still see that he is a chonky boy and a short king.

[DyvTheNaga]

So you’re saying… It’s not the size of the xeno, but how you use it?

[birb]

Game feel is dying to the lurker and having your bones broken because they walloped you.

(If you get owned you should feel owned)

Main post

I think it’d be good to try defining gamefeel first (I am not completely versed in this, and so it’s hard to define outside of examples I suppose)

gamefeel is how the game feels to play, what you interact with, how it responds to how you interact with it, etc. And so it makes sense, in the context of the game!

I suppose a good way to say it is that it’s how the game can make you feel a certain way and make you think about certain things while playing it.

If you are brutalized in one spot over and over again it just makes sense that a bone breaks, and more importantly, that feedback makes sense and is enjoyable in the game! The crunch of a bone and a slowdown to go alongside it means you feel the impact of a fight.

Now for how accurate it is for a “small” thing to do brutal damage? While small does set an expectation, it’s also a xenomorph and pretty unnoticeable ingame.

Realistically, it should tear off whole chunks of flesh, not just break bones. if you are caught out by a xeno morph you are fucked. Pretending like “small xenos” are not dangerous is just bold-faced not a good design choice either. All xenos are dangerous and brutal, bonebreaks ingame serve a very good purpose balance-wise and design-wise.

The game makes the xenos feel brutal because their attacks actually do lasting damage, are sloppy (breaking your bones), and uncaring/hateful (if you do not fight back or lose, they will brutalize you and leave you fucked up).

I think accounting for “xenomorph size” also fails to account for the fact its ss13, and small things making little sense does not matter all that much compared to how much it matters that the small things are fun and enjoyable to use. It makes sense in the context of the game. Sprite inconsistencies are just a part of ss13.

It’s also, simply a core part of the xenomorph side. Removing bonebreaks from lurker (without an equal alternative) would mean backline would have very little impact. The easiest alternative would be the same thing with a different name and sound effect and that’d solve the “gamefeel” issues.

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tldr:

gamefeel is how the game feels to play, what you interact with, how it responds to how you interact with it, etc. And so it makes sense, in the context of the game!

realistically, if you are playing the game noone is gonna think about how a “small” xeno is attacking them. They are thinking “fuck fuck fuck im gonna get bonebroken!!” or “get plabbed!! noob xeno haha!!”. Game feel for gamey things. This is fun!

That is the more important gamefeel, and design factor in general for bonebreaks imo. Both sides will get that feeling of a fights impact because the game responded to their actions and dished out punishment to the loser with a big noticeable, interesting crack and a slowdown.

Gamefeel can be a result of realistic expectations yes (since breaking immersion is not a good feeling), but if this compromise makes the game less enjoyable or worsens “gamefeel” overall then it is not good for gamefeel.

[Willzadl]

12 edits is insanity, u r rambling

[birb]

@Willzadl

12 edits is insanity, u r rambling

idk im just trying to condense it and check for errors. and thinking more about da topic because its enjoyable
(the edits are mostly minor edits)

long posts are annoying to say right. Its like having multiple posts in one posts, which is reasoning for the high edit count.

[atticus-rezzer]

I have thought about it quite a bit-the fracturing considerations.

Unless I missed it I saw no thoughts on random chance to fracture to reduce the potential to fracture.

For xenos, this is a very important thing for xenos to get.
Though I personally know how much blood loss, and using meds can really bog down the Marines, it isn’t as “noticeable” for xenos.
Simply taking marines out of the fight temporarily does a lot, and the more you take marines out of a fight, the worse they perform over time due to internal organ problems.

Last night I saw a high hour very skilled xeno player declare the leaving of a match-I’m unsure if it was irl stuff he had to leave for, but it came off as though “this FOB siege is taking too long.”
We were not only winning, but the marines evacuated. So the slow attrition against marines may be demoralizing for Xeno players without any “oh yeah, I REALLY got that one guy good.” Slow progress can seem like no progress.

As for the fracking, I think keeping it the same is okay.

As for the limb targeting, I think a focus session with some people on “how” removing limb targeting should work with a couple high hour xeno players and a couple good contributed would be best.

I unfortunately don’t have as much time as I thought I would for some of these changes, so #ideasguy

[birb]

@atticus-rezzer

Unless I missed it I saw no thoughts on random chance to fracture to reduce the potential to fracture.

Hard to tell what this means exactly. Fractures currently are consistent with how many slashes it takes, and I think that’s fine.

@atticus-rezzer

We were not only winning, but the marines evacuated. So the slow attrition against marines may be demoralizing for Xeno players without any “oh yeah, I REALLY got that one guy good.” Slow progress can seem like no progress.

I think the problem with fob siege is it’s just unfun.

Some reasonings for it being unfun could be that it feels boring/unengaging, uninteractive, and repetitive.

I do think you’re right though that “slow progress” can feel like no progress. Without that engaging response to what you do as a player, it’s hard to feel the fun of a slow progression. If you can’t see your impact, then it’s hard to tell you’re doing anything at all.

That’s the way I see it at least.

I am also a player who generally enjoys fast-paced fighting with lots of back-and-forth, which fob siege has little of. However, it could also be that the game itself is not correctly designed to do slow gameplay in a way that is enjoyable. The amount of skill expression is minimal, the amount of input is minimal, the amount of challenge is also minimal.

Seeing what causes “boring” too, something that stuck to me a long time is this chart, and I think it makes sense here.

It’s hard to feel particularly “skilled” at fob siege, since you aren’t doing anything and keep getting pushed back by guns. And it’s not very challenging either. And so, it may make you feel apathetic or bored.

Perhaps a way to fix this is to change the perception, and try to feel more “relaxed” somehow? I’m probably extrapolating a bit too much here though.

@atticus-rezzer

As for the limb targeting, I think a focus session with some people on “how” removing limb targeting should work with a couple high hour xeno players and a couple good contributed would be best.

Maybe yeah. I personally don’t see it as much of a problem, outside of it being a noob trap to target chest…

The problem with removing limb targetting (or effectively, adding armor to limbs) is it increases time to kill/frac for what should be squishy marines imo. It also removes the variety of fractures, and as such, less depth of game.

Maybe buffing chest aiming would be a better idea? I don’t really think it’s necessary, though.

[BasilHerb]

Average fracs in 4-5? Holy shit, please give me those odds. I’m getting fracced like every 2-3 average

[SubjectD9341]

Number 1: As of now I believe every xenos should be able to fracture marines. You may have noticed in some rounds when marines are murderballing properly, xenos even with T3s can’t cause any significant casualties. They are often forced back before killing someone, and even if they do these marines are immediately revived by the medics in the back. A marine death at the front is trivial due to the low organ damage caused by a defibrillator. Only bone breaks then matter and it’s a reason why burn damage is underwhelming to marines.

Number 2: The current leg/foot meta is result of the health system alone. Since what causes death is a flat 200 damage anywhere, there’s almost no reason to aim for the chest if your goal is to kill a marine quickly. Forcing xenos to aim chest only with the current system would just be a straight nerf to xeno time to kill.

Now, if you were motivated, you could try to create a new more comprehensive health system where getting your leg/foot mangled wouldn’t kill you straight away but instead create hemorrhages/put you into shock which then kill you.