Marine Law blatantly applies to everyone on the ship. It is obvious. However, I think it should be made more obvious with an easily searchable “Corporate Liason”/“Weyland-Yutani Staff” on the Marine Law page to avoid more situations like this that lead to headaches and FailRP.
If there is some kind of special case that doesn’t apply to the carefully-written Marine Law where CLs aren’t actually covered, then it needs to be rewritten to be crystal clear on that and exclude them from “other faction and organizations”.
They are outside the chain of command because command would never fall to them. Just above it - and as I screenshotted - it is otherwise specified
On ship, Civilians are under the direct authority of the Command and Security departments. They must obey their orders, but are not required to obey the orders of any other military personnel unless they are placed in a department, in which case they are also under the authority of all crewmembers of that department.
The guy who brings in food shipments isn’t an employee for a restaurant, but they aren’t allowed to walk in and call the manager a shithead without consequences.
It simply follows that a member of an external organization would not be allowed or permitted to bring into question the legitimacy of the command hierarchy during an operation without consequences, especially as they are intended to be the charismatic face of The Company.
DASO can never apply to the Liaison unless they fax an insult to the Director, and that would not be an arrest-worthy offense unless it were caustic enough to warrant PMC dispatchment. Also the ambiguity makes it more fun! Using a little common sense goes a long way.
Free speech is what the marines are fighting for isn’t it? Unless it’s anti-Weyland-Yutani speech! But yes, the throwing of insults is an important CL power. Typically depends on the CO’s level of Company loyalty, and unfortunately, they usually they need to be knocked down a peg and humiliated for disloyalty/disrespect.
By the way, the CL does not need to be charismatic to do their job, especially when the command staff or marines are anti-Weyland-Yutani. Weyland-Yutani is an inherently evil megacorp with huge investments in the USCM and members of High Command in their pockets, it can be fun RP to use that leverage to threaten commanders/marines and openly humiliate them without consequence if they’re not fitting the WY agenda.
I really should start Marine Law classes and charge people who attend them…
Anyways. The CL is actually explicitly mentioned in Marine Law pretty high up on the page.
Anyone employed on a USCM ship is expected to follow all aspects of ML. This means civilians such as the Corporate Liason have to remain respectful. The CL and CMO are considered to be below the current Commander directly. Doctors and CMO are held to their department standing orders and should not be ordered unless the Commander wills it.
Basically what this means is that yes the CL has to follow ML, and it applies to the CL. But the CL cant really be ordered around or be charged with DASO by anyone besides the current Commander.
Its kind of a weird side rank thing where the CL is actually pretty high up there and barely has anyone above them in rank structure. But the CL cant order anyone around since they have nobody ranking directly below them at the same time.
There are some edgecase vague things with the CL like what kinda stuff the CL can actually do and what they would need permission for. Along with what it means to be “respectful”.
But having the CL have some grey area is part of the fun and part of what makes the role unique.
Also they are kinda guests and not employed by the USCM. So they’re a bit like a weird corporate embassy member but without any sort of diplomatic immunity.
I will also stress that Medical used to be civilian, hence why the now-ranked medical would have a “Professor” (now an officer) above staff officers in the chain of command, and why it would not make sense for them to still be grouped-in with the CL - who still is a civilian, and has no place on the CoC.
Before you can teach Marine Law, you must learn the most important lesson in all of Space Station 13: Wiki maintainers are volunteers, there will be outdated information, and your answer will be in four different parts on three different wiki pages.
The marines are unsuprisingly fighting for property, the same as in real-life and every other medium that features space marines.
Crimes that cover Freedom of Speech include:
Disrespecting a Superior Officer
Laws do not exist to protect your rights, they are there to protect institutions. Being a jackass and promoting ideals or acts that impair the smooth operation of the USCM and its mission are a threat to its institution.
I guess that maybe for the CMO it might be outdated since there was a rank rework for medbay, so that might need updating? I’m not great with my medical ranks I’ll admit.
In any case there is no reason why it shouldnt apply to the CL the way that its listed there. SOP mentioning civilians are talking about civilians IN THE AO.
It would make just about zero sense to say that that the procedures regarding civilians that are recovered from the AO would apply to the CL instead of the part of marine law that EXPLICITLY mentions the CL.
When it comes to the chain of command thing I guess that it might need an exception for the CL? Since like I mentioned ML does mention that the CL only reports to the Commander. And that also makes total sense.
Why would the CL, someone who was assigned by W-Y to work directly with the command staff of the USS Almayer along with furthering W-Y interests, fall under the command of MPs?
Like they still have to follow ML so stuff like MPs telling you to get on the floor so you can be cuffed or MPs telling the CL to cooperate with a search would of course need to be followed. But not all MP orders should need to be followed, since it wouldn’t make sense for a MP to be able to order a CL to clean a hallway or something like that.
I get that civilians are mentioned in the wiki page on rank but its clearly talking about survs and not the CL. The only thing to change would probably be to swap over “Civilians” for “Colonists” or maybe to make an exception for the CL idk.
But CLs can do and say basically say whatever they like, thats kind of the point of the role and also the spirit of the role. They are the little gremlin thats always trying to get command to sign off on some bad deal or trying to complete some WY goal.
I guess that I could try to get in contact with the wiki folks to see if the Rank page can be changed to maybe list the CL separately or something like that. But I do think that the Rank section on civilians is the inconsistent one here, not the Marine Law definition of where the CL stands.
The issue with CLs and marine law is one of burnt bridges. DASO, failure to follow procedure, and other various charges exist because you are a professional here to represent profitable interests: calling a coworker/client a flaming assbomb because “you can do whatever you want” means tainting the brand and public relations, in the same way that an MP breaking Marine Law catches Neglect of Duty and is supposed to be terminated promptly.
It is, simply, a skill issue. If the CL wants to break the law that applies to them, they should work for it. The MPs can’t charge for DASO or Contraband if they have $50 in their pocket that tells them to ignore it, and command could permit a SOP change allowing the CL a flamethrower if it came at the same time as a glowing review of the marine’s performance was inserted blatantly into the CIC’s fax machine. A special case means letting the CL’s tools go to waste.
Finally: of course MPs would have say-so over the CL. If a rifleman fucks up, then they can be attended to by the SL, SEA, or SO as is within all of their job descriptions. If the CL fucks up, would you rather pull a very busy member of CIC out of their job managing the operation to handle it, or the MPs who aren’t on the frontline, are already there to protect non-coms whenever applicable, and are readily available?
I don’t get why are you trying to bring up some vague analogues that don’t prove anything because each example has it’s own nuances and doesn’t really apply. CO and CL and MPs are not coworkers. CL in a sense is just an embassador from the company that hired (if I am not mistaken) USCM to deal with the problem. In this regard, it’s in the USCM interest to not piss CL (who represents the company that pays you), not the other way around. It doesn’t matter if calling someone a fuckhead is professional or not. ML does not and should not cover how «professional» CL is. It’s the company’s problem if CL acts unprofessional and spoils USCM-WY relations.
Nah I completely disagree. Breaking relations between USCM and WY just because some shitsec is powertripping is not what should be happening. So yeah, I’d rather have all actions against CL approved by aCO (or at the very least by CMP), unless it’s really something bad that requires immediate intervention. The same should apply to CC since they probably have some immunity as a journalist.
I’m not really sure why an MP would be power tripping and trying to tell a CL they can’t go down to the colony that they were sent along with the marines to oversee the investigation/recovery of.
Then again, my favorite part of Aliens was when Burke got arrested for deploying to the colony on the first drop…
Shitposting aside, another dumpster fire thread that needs broken down and doused with retardant:
Per the OP, and the player report I read, I’m assuming the main issue of contention is a CL deploying and applying ML to them.
The corporate liaison is on the ship at the Company’s “request”. Yes, there are expectations of what the liaison should and should not be doing. The liaison should be remaining professional, presenting a good public image, so-on-and-so-forth et cetera. For the most part, it’s an understanding that if the CL wants to do something and it’s not unreasonable or it’s plausible for them to be needing to do it, then the marines (and MPs) should be facilitating, or at the least, not getting in the way of it. This includes, but is not limited to, deploying to the colony. If the liaison deploys to investigate something or tour the FOB, then ostensibly this is creating/facilitating RP, and very likely some sort of directive of the Company and part of the Company’s interest.
I understand how it might be difficult to understand how to play an MP that isn’t Beck-tier with applying THE LAW due to the OOC requirements surrounding MPs, but more often than not, just as easily as you can squint and twist ML to fuck someone, you can squint and twist ML to enable someone. The important thing is the spirit of the law, and it is an incredibly easy argument that the spirit of the law includes corporate cronyism and not torpedoing your own career to try to slam the CL with a 15 minute brig time over something, ultimately, petty that realistically doesn’t/shouldn’t apply, as - see above - it’s the Company’s colony, and the CL is there to oversee Company interests.
It boils down to, ‘is the CL actively hindering us?’ If no, probably fuck off and let the CL do his thing.
If I missed the point or am misunderstanding some aspect of the argument here, please let me know.
I really do feel these arguments fail on both an IC level and and OOC level.
IC: The United Americas want resources and territory. They sign-off on W-Y putting colonies on space rocks, and in return for taxes and advancing the frontier: keep them safe from pirates and aliens and rival factions and such. While the USCM gets some toys from W-Y as gifts but not anything that’d prop-up their entire operation (Guns, food, smokes, uniforms, and the entire ship aren’t W-Y products), the marines have the guns. W-Y is portrayed in every movie as working in the shadows and trying to quietly get away with their bullshit because they are not the ones with all the power. If they were: they’d be in the chain of command.
A CL who is an asshole not only sours corporate relations, but in the same way that mutineering and warcrimes are discouraged in Marine Law: the USCM doesn’t need some uppity suit trying to turn their own marines against them, or a firebrand throwing the mission of course be it a marine throwing things at the bubble in briefing, or a CL going to get themselves killed and proving that the marines can’t defend a single on their own ship, let alone a whole colony.
OOC: For the same reason that we’d be upset with someone rolling Squad Leader just for the cool guns with no intention to communicate, or a medical role deploying and keeping all the pills to themselves to support their UNGA playstyle, I feel we should feel a similar sense of a wasted slot towards hands-on CLs.
Let’s say that you wanted to “inspect the colony”. Action-wise, this is deploying, walking around to see how things are, and coming back up. Mechanically, any marine, IO, combat correspondent, or synth could do that. Not only could they accomplish it, but they already come equipped with the weapons, armor, tools, and objective to accomplish those tasks more effectively than a Corporate Liason could. Therefore, why not just play those other roles?
However, if you wanted to accomplish it in a way that only a CL could:
Convince command to give you access to the overwatch consoles. Strongly encourage orders or even make them yourself to bring certain key areas into helmet cam range. Maybe you could arrange an echo squad?
Hell, why not pay-off some MTs or even commtechs to specifically fortify and repair a key structure - admin or engineering, probably - to full glory. Fix every light, rebuild the chairs, patch the walls, and put new doors up. That would involve a lot of people.
Pay the Combat Correspondent to take full-size pictures of exclusively pristine parts of the colony (as rare as those may be) to tell the company everything is fine and good.
I don’t believe in special allowances or protections to somebody just because they got a limited role. Just like people who got lucky with a spec role and decided they wanted to be the protagonist and most special snowflake in a 100+ person lobby doesn’t mean they get to throw it away as a PFC with extra steps. Just like those specs who think they’re cool enough to assault an CT for not giving them a crate of ammo at roundstart and get away with it, I think
“I’m going to the colony with the weapons.”
“No, I won’t tell you why, no I won’t show you the fax, no I won’t bribe you to ignore me, no I won’t explain how this accomplishes my job, and no I won’t even try to arrange back-up with the specific department entitled to provide me an escort.”
– should also catch you jailtime.
In so many words, the roots of my conniptions are:
There are close to a dozen other roles you could choose to have the same gameplay (deploying, acting like a jarhead, disrespecting superiors and law enforcement), but picking the one you did for the same purpose takes its unique flavor someone else may have made more use of.
Since even the CO is explicitly “not above marine law” despite having near-ultimate authority upon the ship, I see no reason why the same allowance should be extended to a civilian wearing a tie.
We already have rules against frontlining as CL. If CL deploys to shoot guns at xenos it’s a problem of course. But it’s not your problem as an MP, we have moderators to deal with it because this is a rulebreak. MP is not an IC moderator. If it’s not against ML, you have nothing to do with it and you are not the one to judge.
Also I don’t know where the assumption that if CL deploys he’s not going to communicate comes from. You can deploy and communicate, you can roleplay with your escort, you can set up a W-Y tent, it wouldn’t be a wasted slot. Comparing a crucial role such as SL with a side role (CL) is also really strange, if you don’t see any difference then I don’t know what to say.
MP is not an IC moderator. If it’s not against ML, you have nothing to do with it and you are not the one to judge.
I thought I was really clever by going through the entire list of server rules with every law that is covered under that rule added directly underneath it, and chose to redact that because just saying what I was going to do proves my point.
However, I would like to highlight that MPs doing their job has no purpose than to be an in-game bwoink and a-sleep so that other people playing their objectives can continue to do so unhindered: CIC giving orders without some asshole shouting over them in comms, CTs working without getting windows broken, and Neglect of Duty/Sedition being almost exclusively about making sure people play the same game they agreed to play by selecting their role that other players may have been gunning for.
Also I don’t know where the assumption that if CL deploys he’s not going to communicate comes from. You can deploy and communicate, you can roleplay with your escort, you can set up a W-Y tent, it wouldn’t be a wasted slot.
My issue isn’t with those ones, because - as I stated - they likely already know ML well enough to work within it and don’t need a HEY NERD, THESE APPLY TO YOU TOO clarifier, or are charismatic and inventive enough to get away with it regardless. Same reason that the best whitelisted characters are unlikely to catch player reports: I’ve never seen a report that goes “Hugh G Rection made the round more enjoyable for everyone involved in interesting and entertaining ways, though unfortunately broke a rule/law doing so.” I am worried that someone who spends the round telling everyone in earshot how important they are and explaining why they are above the law that applies to everyone from Nurse to Major is burning time that could have instead gone to someone far more deserving.
I do believe that allowing for the sorts who deploy and drop communications does lessen the role and set a bad example . . . hence the forum post.
Comparing a crucial role such as SL with a side role (CL) is also really strange, if you don’t see any difference then I don’t know what to say.
There are four times as many SLs as there are CLs, about double as many dedicated replacements to them, and an entire system to pick literally anybody else from their entire squad to substitute their place.
There is a single CL, with no junior executive, and no replacement or system for such.
While there’s of course the blatant difference in what they do, the issue is that you argue the importance of “crucial roles” (not the CL) who lack a special pass to act like jackasses and play against their role because the marines IC have to kiss their ass, or highlight that the CLs who don’t contribute as much should get such privileges without the burden of responsibility on their shoulders.
The CL has no “superior officer” no matter how you spin it. Yes, they do have to obey Marine Law while in the AO and on a USCMC vessel, and they are posted on the Almayer to specifically work with the Command Staff (meaning the CO is “technically” their superior), but they don’t have to take orders from anyone beyond orders by MPs when dealing with crime (i.e. detaining the CL, or ordering the CL to surrender evidence).
If a CL is constantly berating everyone and being disruptive, then you charge them with Disorderly Conduct, not DASO.