Yeah, because you can just throw a knife at someone, and it basicly does the same amount of damage and guaranteed bleed (albeit no funny knockback). So putting it under there seems perfect.
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I don’t think anyone here is disagreeing that an HIRR slug round is markedly less lethal than a bullet. The question remains, how does it get worded in the rules? Proposals would be appreciated, I don’t have time to play with jargon right now, but it must be clear before it is entertained.
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Escalation
Fists/General melee/MP tools
MP tools are not considered lethal weaponry. Unless a MP is shooting you, or using a baton on harm intent, you can’t respond lethally.
Knives/Dangerous melee/HIRR Baton Slugs
Lethal Weapons/Chemicals used as weapons
For example: Inaprovaline Overdoses, Chloral Hydrate, Tramadol/Oxycodone Overdoses
If at any point combat is disengaged and both parties leave the area, you cannot skip escalation and plunge back into a fight. What’s done is done.
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Correct take.
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Baton slugs are only lethal if you try really hard… I don’t think it should be considered the same as other firearms by the rules
At most dangerous melee.
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i’ve always said that the baton slugs make sense to be lethal, does anyone read the descriptions? They were used in lore, and the lore says it burst lungs and other shit. I assume that’s why it instakills some people, because you have bursted their lungs from the force of the impact.
Are HIRR slugs the only special article needing to be added in your opinion?
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So the whole lung breaking thing is what makes it lethal or is the whole sbuconscious idea of being a ranged thing and being a grenade launcher making it lethal? Your argument is saying that because it can break your lungs, and cause internal damage (presumably) that they are classified as lethal, a knife, chair, fists, and table do the same.
Are chairs, knives, fists, grab intent, and tables are to be considered lethal weapons too? Intent is important, if you are chairing someone and they tell you to stop, but you dont and they’ve been being hit for a while, you can expect to get PB’d by a shotgun.
The same should applies to HIRR slugs, I dont understand why its treated differently. Lore this, Roleplay this, roleplay that, we’re playing a computer game.
HIRR slugs should fall in the dangerous melee category, and treated the same way as chairs and table slamming. Same way, as if you constantly are seen beating people over the head with a chair round after round, that you can get in trouble for it, if you’re stirring shit, you’ll get in trouble for it. It simple, just encompass the HIRR slug underneath that too.
As a sidenote, yes, you are correct. I did not make the report to talk about killing, I had no problem with anyone there, the subject, and only subject I intented to speak on was the note I was given. None of us had a problem with it, this picture basically sums it all up:
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the slugs have a chance to insta kill you apparently. I’ve never seen it but the OP says so. Seems like a step above a chair fists and other means you listed. If the instakill was removed then i agree fully. But as it stands it’s lethal because of it.
I think there’s a bit of misunderstanding regarding the instakill chance- The instant kill always also kills the shooter, too. So uh, I don’t think it’s really valid in the sense of “% chance to burst lung and instakill”, rather it’s more “% chance for something really funny to happen to both people”.
For example, someone I knew walked up to me in briefing and shot me while I was eating Charlie breakfast as a joke, which ended up instantly killing me and them. We both just died at the same time (the slug must’ve like, ricochet’d between our bodies multiple times in a millisecond, giving each person multiple fracs and insane brute. We both just stared at one another in d-chat, completely dumbfounded, everyone in briefing was fucking confused when they realised we were dead, not stunned, and they got noted for it by an admin, after they informed us that it was an “intended feature”, not a bug in d-chat.
(which still rubs me the wrong way. Why would anyone code a feature in that no one knows about, and then start noting people for murder with said unknown feature?)
The second time I saw this was when a gigachad had been slugging random people in brief for shits and giggles, and then decided that slugging the new CO was an incredible idea. As luck would have it, the gods blessed their baton slug to receive the funny murder-suicide instant-kill property, and both the CO and the gigachad were flung backwards, instantly dying. The CO was revived first and BE’d the gigachad’s corpse for murder.
(Whilst INCREDIBLY fucking funny, I do feel bad for that guy getting round-ended for something they had no idea could happen.)
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It’s no different then a knife beheading someone, which is also an instakill. Knives aren’t considered a lethal weapon under escalation though. To actually use it as a lethal weapon requires a lot more effort then a firearm which kills people in 3 shots gauranteed.
It’s a very rare chance to happen where the baton slug bounces between the shooter and the shootee a ton of times at once, and instakills both. The only reason it’s considered an intended feature is because it’s funny as hell. It should not influence rules, as it is not in the spirit of the rule.
If you are smited by the baton slug from hell, then you just got realllllly poor luck.
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If this insta kill thing is actually real I’m pretty sure it’s a bug
I’m looking at the code for the baton slugs and I don’t see anything that seems like an intentional rng insta kill
I’m skeptical if it even exists since I’ve never seen it happen, and I don’t think rulings should be made based on “supposedly there’s this weird mechanic that nobody has evidence of and is not apparent even looking at the code”
Edit: Oh I see, the insta kill is just the slug bouncing back and forth, that makes sense but the chance must be ridiculously low for it to bounce enough to kill you.
It bounces to a random tile within a distance of 2. So 25 possible tiles (assuming the range is a square?). In PB range 2 of those tiles would bounce back and hit you (the one you are on and the one behind you) so 2/25 chance. After that it’s a 1/25 each time since you would both be knocked down. Ignoring armor, it would take around 13 hits to fully kill you (less than that to crit). So unless I’m misunderstanding something, the chance for that seems astronomically low. Can anyone smarter than me figure out how the hell this has happened to people? Actually this is kind of off topic at this point so nevermind.
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oh shit that makes sense. didn’t know that. Never mind, i got destoryed on this one.
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its as simple as
- Fists/General melee/MP tools
- MP-issued and other less-than-lethal tools are not considered lethal weaponry. Unless a MP is shooting you, or using a baton on harm intent, you can’t respond lethally.
- Knives/Dangerous melee
- Lethal Weapons/Chemicals used as weapons
- For example: Inaprovaline Overdoses, Chloral Hydrate, Tramadol/Oxycodone Overdoses
- If at any point combat is disengaged and both parties leave the area, you cannot skip escalation and plunge back into a fight. What’s done is done.
someone might say this doesn’t include a clause stating that if used excessively you can return fire with lethal force, but that is covered in both the exceptional circumstances and injury & risk to life sections of the escalation policy
*edited, minor spelling error
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- Fists/General melee/MP tools
- Knives/Dangerous melee/Non-Lethal Weapon
-
- A non-lethal weapon is explicitly defined as a HIRR Baton Slug, X, and Y
- Lethal Weapons/Chemicals used as weapons
Essentially, add a clause that non-lethal/less than lethal weapons fall into the category of knives/dangerous melee, but these weapons MUST BE explicitly named as being non-lethal. So there is no room for ambiguity and that anything that is not explicitly defined does get the classification.
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- MP-issued and other less-than-lethal tools are not considered lethal weaponry. Unless a MP is shooting you, or using a baton on harm intent, you can’t respond lethally.
This tells us that “less-than-lethal tools” are not lethal weapons, but doesn’t tell where they fit into escalation. Also it doesn’t define less-than-lethal tools.
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Could work! Though it’ll need to be fully drafted first.
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I like this. Very civil discussion. Good on you all.
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I hadnt considered other things TBH. Rubber bullets seem to be understood where they stand.
Nothing else really comes up that im aware. Doesnt mean other things shouldnt be considered.
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The important part is “resulting in a lethal shootout.”
The act of firing a batton slug isn’t improper escalation UNLESS they have changed the escalation rules in the last 6 months without announcing it.