Feedback on new XM51 shotgun since PR feedback forum isn't used for anything

General Discussion
21

So as far as damage goes, I think this is in a good place and may even still be on the low side (need more playtesting).

the damage before was 50 in total. the weapon fires 4 pellets in total. right now the damage is 85 if all 4 pellets hit, with the main one dealing 50.

I’ve found reloading to be a bit unwieldy.

it definitely takes a bit of getting used to, no doubt about it. i’ve gotten pretty fast with it but there aren’t a lot of ways to make it better.

All of that could be easier to deal with if I could just pump the shells into the gun like a regular shotgun while its got a mag inserted.

i’ve seen people try to reload it like a regular shotgun and yeah, that would make it a bit easier to work with. but the weapon right now is pretty gimmicky with the whole pump-action, self-chambering 2 shot burst… the source material of this weapon (m51 breaching scattergun from A:FE) is an absolute mess with a lot of contradictory info. i have no idea how you would explain manually reloading shells in while a magazine is attached, but in the end it’s more about lore/immersion.

I’m just not giving up the stock’s burst fire and accuracy to use the belt, especially when the belt only holds 4 mags and I don’t even have 4 mags but 2+1.

it doesn’t just hold mags, but also handfuls of shells. meaning you can put the gun in, 2 mags and 2 handfuls right now to quickly reload a magazine. i’ll look into buffing the holster rig a bit more, though. possibly give it 6-8 slots in total, equivalent to a shell pouch. requsitions does stock a few reserve mags, so you can always ask them to vend you one or two.

With respect to wall destroying performance - the places you really want to use it tend to be the really tough colony walls, and in those cases it chews through your ammo very quickly.

in my testing it took around 4 shells to take down a regular colony wall and 8 to take down reinforced ones. people have told me that it takes a lot more in practice, and i’m not sure why. maybe some maps have different health values for walls, but i don’t think that’s true either since i didn’t notice any difference in my testing. either way, i have buffed its use against colony walls and it should take half the amount of shells it doe snow. it might be too much, but considering it’s a TM right now, values can always be changed.

As far as resin wall clearing goes - I actually wouldn’t ever use it for that. The ammo is simply too sparse. Instead I focused on chokepoint walls to widen them for pushing through, or breaking walls to create flanks.

this!!! this is how i always envisioned the weapon to be used. not for clearing out big chunks of resins that you can safely take out with knives, but to open up new pathways and flank routes for marines. to open up fortified positions so marines can push through. it has double the range of the UBS and much greater damage against structures, so people should take advantage of that to clear out a position that seems too hard to push due to resin walls or doors or whatever.

thank you a ton for the feedback wintermote. it really gives me a lot of perspective on the weapon and how the changes effected the weapon and what else needs to be changed. i’m personally satisfied with the weapon currently and i think it fulfills a decent niche. it could possibly use a couple of more touch-ups, and i’ll see what it precisely needs as it keeps getting tested. hopefully zonespace likes the execution and merges it in the end once everything is done and over with. if not, no biggie. i’m generally just happy to see it in-game, even for a short time

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22

This is such a cool alternative option and I’ve been chomping at the bit to try it, no luck so far. Really need more unique role-fillers than just min-maxing gunz. More ammo is a good idea. Maybe have it deal very high melee against walls too as others suggested. Oneshot nodes, pop walls like a sledge.

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23

Why dont we just give comtecs the ability to buy the XM51 in there point vendor? Comtecs already make best use of them, being abel to tear down normal metal walls in a decent time and not the 10years it takes with tools. (by the way @vilebeggar I love you for this. Clearing walls for good cade lines is something that grind your soul down. And thanks to you its fun now instead.)

The XM51 is a tool after all more then a weapon. Yes U7 is also cababel of breaching but its not even sligthly abel to do what the XM51 can. And it never will. Please dont try and push the XM51 to be a weapon you can record mlg videos with, let it filll its nice and stay a tool for terrain destruction.

Also vilebegger, didnt your pr say its a mag feed shotgun? Where are the mags? Im so sad about that part man. Mag feed shotguns be cool af.

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24

it you attach the stock and the bayonet to the weapon, it deals around 35 damage (same as a machete). it’s a pretty good number and i don’t think it should be bigger than that.

i would but i feel like there would be too many of them around. there are a ton of comtech slots. i know not everyone would buy it, but it’s a pretty powerful tool and should be limited. even 2 or 3 guys with this gun at the front can really build up momentum for marines if they know what they’re doing.

the mags are there, it’s just that they super limited. the 3 you get are probably all you’re gonna have. req stocks a few more in reserve and they might get one or two from ASRS once in a while but you should never count on it. you just have to keep those mags close to you like they are your children (and maybe get some hotkeys set up for quicker reloading)

beagle’s inventory hotkeys are a very big marine buff (even bigger than autofire)

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25

So long as ammo is not super restrictive, even if the magazines are rare, then I think it’d be fine.

26

I’ve had a chance to play with the shotgun. My thoughts are that it is very good at clearing endless xeno resin walls and doors, as well as colony walls. I think the ammo required per item is neatly balanced.

Ammo is the main issue, though I think the base kit comes with just enough ammo, and the ammo box in req is extremely good to have at the FOB. I did burn through a lot of ammo, and that while I was well resupplied, I think that if every single breaching shotgun user was as proactive as I was that we’d have ammo issues.

I’d only focus on ensuring there is sufficent ammo.

In terms of damage, I never tried to use it in combat as I kept a M41A for that.

I never used the stock since I really needed my suit slot for a gun, and the belt was too strong to pass up due to its ammo and mag storage. Its a bit unfortunate I couldn’t really use the stock but that is a hard choice a player has to make so that may be fine.

27

Agreed. Imo, the main utility is NOT resin walls, but colony walls. The ammo restriction is there- So I’ve found that using the shotgun to blow up colony walls (which otherwise need C4 or BC) is the most efficient use, unless you’re hell pushing through the hive or something.

Being able to wipe through walls easily and inexpensively is huge- People don’t seem too recognise just how fucking bad walls are for marines, and how massive of a buff they are to xenos. Being able to kill colony walls fast and effectively imo, the biggest advantage it has over the U7. Not so much the resin walls.

Sadly, most XM-51 users just don’t actually use the gun often, or don’t pro-actively kill walls, probably due req sucking at sending down ammo resupplier.

It’s a very powerful utility weapon (as it should be), and can definitely have round-changing impacts (blowing open walls to flank for marines, or breakthrough the choke by widening it, instead of a 20 minute stalemate).
Alas, as with all weapons- The potential power is hampered by marines being marines. It’s a great gun, fun to use. Imo, merge immediately.

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28

I am a massive wall hater but I’d still rather decon a wall for the rods and metal than blow incredibly limited ammunition.

29

I concur.

I believe the utility of this weapon in destroying colony walls and resin walls is extremely valuable. It has a very far extended firing range compared to the UBS, and the ability to clear walls to open lanes of fire is underappreciated and powerful.

Clearing resin walls is also very powerful. Many times I was able to singlehandedly open up a frontline and exposed hiding xenos to attack just by clearing those corners. Whereas beforehand Marines would be stuck forever clearing endless walls or being forced to wait for CAS, now we can see a few breaching shotgun users clearing the frontline and giving the Marines a chance to actually push.

The fact that the weapon allows Marines to push and fight is the biggest boon.

E: This is also a huge counter to those annoying Hivelords/Queens who remote build walls in front of Marines on the frontline.

Again, this change is nothing but a boon in giving Marines a tool to actually push a frontline instead of getting trapped behind endless resin walls.

Ammo being the main balance factor is fine, it encourages req to be proactive and ensure the FOB is supplied with ammo.

30

I get what you mean, but let’s face it- 5% of engineers actually decon walls, or use walls to defend.
Yes, deconstructing walls is always more economical.
Yes, calling the synth to breach hammer the wall is always faster. (except PVT Stanley has the hammer instead).
However- In reality? It just doesn’t happen.

Deconstructing walls almost never happens if you’re not near FOB. On the frontline, there isn’t anyone deconstructing walls. It’s always C4, breach charges, fire support, or marines staying at the choke for so long bullets start melting them.

In this scenario, the XM51 is king.

31

This is also a huge counter to those annoying Hivelords/Queens who remote build walls in front of Marines on the frontline.

IMO this is how a lot of balance should be done - not strictly nerfs or buffs but good options for counterplays.

@BasilHerb

Deconstructing walls almost never happens if you’re not near FOB. On the frontline, there isn’t anyone deconstructing walls.

I do it sometimes, but it is very time consuming and extremely risky. I’d guess that it takes about 1, maybe 2 minutes per wall, and marines don’t typically stand around you that long to keep you safe while you do it either, so you’d better have a sentry, and if it’s a time critical situation like during a push, you’ll be left behind before you’re even a quarter of the way through taking the wall apart.

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32

I will say, the weapon is a surprisingly good IO pick. I had a lot of fun with it just breaking down walls and doors, while also scaring off runners thinking I had buckshot.

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33

I tried this gun yesterday, it was pretty okay.

This gun is very good against slow moving melee xenos like crusher or rav if they are next to you and trying to attack you, takes big chunks of their health with burst-fire.

Now for walls it is quite great, can take down walls very fast for like cheeky flanks, or just taking down walls faster for engis to set up cades.

34

Honestly, you could probably bump the numbers up from 55 damage, to like 60 or 65. Otherwise its pretty good.

35

i will reiterate my one real suggestion to this weapon: let the stock fold like the m39 default one, so it can fit inside the belt when folded, and can be unfolded to use burst fire

EDIT: or add a folding stock that can only 2 shot burst to compensate so there’s some options

36

I noticed on the PR there is a directive to change the maximum range of the shotgun to 2 to 3 tiles.

From my experience playing with the weapon as a Marine and fighting against it as a Xeno, I fear that change would mean there would be almost no reason to use a breaching shotgun.

The range would match the range of a under barrel shotgun, at that point, it now becomes far more inventory and ammo economical to take a shotgun ammo belt instead of the XM51 belt and use a UBS, which not only now has the same range as the breaching shotgun, is far easier to reload and manage due to not needing to wrangle magazines, but deals more damage to xenos and can stun them, while also keeping your m41a ready to fire at all times.

37

Big agree- The reach of the XM51 is a massive, massive selling point for me. It lets me breach aggressively without putting my face against a door within woyer lunge range. It give me confidence to break through the thick resin cancer. Nerfing the range would take away a big reason to take it for me, personally.

38

I think its fine to have it be 3 tiles. 6 tiles is WAY too fucking much lol. Like, why should you be able to instantly destroy a door without getting super close to it? Zero risk involved there…
3 tiles is fine imo…

The way i see xm51, it’s worth it because mags are effective for space, it can be instawielded with an agrip (no stock), and destroys obstacles without the hassle of a masterkey/ubs. Especially for doors- its an invaluable asset for a marine push that stalls out in resin hell.

Like the masterkey, gives the tempo to your push that lets you chase through resin ridden lands and destroy/push back xenos in their own territory.

Thinking of some loadouts…
Because you can store the entire gun kit in your belt, so long as you have enough storage for your essentials, you can take 2 other guns with it. it may be clunky though since you may need to use draw tertiary keybinds for back slot gun. Nothing that can’t be overcome with practice though.

I do agree with steelpoint… it’s gonna become niche at best if it’s only the same as a masterkey in terms of stats… but it deals more dmg to walls so far as i know!

Armor - smg/mk2/mk1/hpr/m4ra/etc… (and mags inside armor)
Belt - xm51 belt (mags stored neatly inside belt)
Back slot - m37

For medicine you could take ointment, bandage in helmet.
Splint, MRE, Binocs, and 2 handfuls of m37 shells in webbing vest.

Then you have 2 pouches. Magazine pouch for extra mags and medicine pouch.

Still, i probably wont be using the gun commonly as it cant easily be fit into a MOU loadout. I can see it being useful for almost all frontline riflemen tho, so long as they learn how to use it. The ammo isn’t that uncommon, since theres always some shells at fob, and the utility it provides is SUPER worthwhile.

in the end it’s gonna be quite similar to the masterkey… you wont even be able to recycle m37 shells for it either, since it has its own ammo type. Quite rough.

39

i would like to see a scattergun added to the brig armory to allow MPs to breach rooms easier then having to wait for a MT to come

40

I originally thought 4 tiles would be good for it, but in actual practice the long range is one of the biggest reasons it’s useful - particularly when you’ve got aliens trying to be cheeky building walls right up to the cadelines. 6 tiles forces that back to a reasonable distance and gives you breathing room to actually leave the cadeline.

Furthermore it’s a huge reason the gun is of any use in combat at all. The damage is pretty meh as-is, but at least you’re able to deal it with some buffer distance.