Foxtrot Smartgunner

I’d be happier if the tech purchase was more streamlined. Such that the first purchase of foxtrot would include 5 marines, the SL, CT, HM, SG, and Spec. Any consecutive purchases would just include 5 additional riflemen.

Or even make it a one-time purchase of a 10-man squad of foxtrot being SL, CT, HM SG, Spec and 5 riflemen.

You will have to consider the balance implications from these changes but, I really dislike foxtrot current implementation and I agree with you on how the spec purchase option feeling wrong. Foxtrot does not feel like a proper squad for the points requirement/the investment in tech levels to get there. Getting 5 marines barely feels like a squad, and it would be better if they were randomly assigned to other squads at spawn. Xenos can easily delay or prevent this by having backliners target IO’s, which happens many times.

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It really feels to me like you can’t argue in good faith and without resorting to personal attacks and insults.

I’m fine with you disagreeing with the utility of the smartgun, and if you want to present those arguments I’ll listen to them and provide my own reasons why I disagree (or maybe agree), but I’m not going to engage with you when every second word is this “I’m better than you” smugness. Stop trying to insinuate that only bad players can have opinions different than yours.


Here’s something I notice ALL The time:

When something is overpowered, then the players using it win because they’re just better players.
When something is underpowered, then the people using it actually just suck and can’t play the game.

It VERY often becomes impossible to discuss balance with some people because it’s just a constant rotation between these two talking points on everything. The possibility that maybe something actually is unbalanced can never enter the discussion; for them it has becomes an axiom that the [thing] is fine and anyone complaining is the real issue.

This was the first sentence.
I am one of CMs bad players.

I presented my arguments. I even made sure the math i did was properly presented.
I made a hyperthetical case in wich your standapoint was very favorable represented and gave a fair argument why the M4RA is still not as good as the M56B.
I made a very long argument against your statement:

You didnt bother to read it, even though i even made a very handy pop out thingy for it, wich is your choice. But dont pretend like your choice to not engage, is me to not wanting to give arguments. Because i gave neutral and objectives arguments.
I just used math and data from the wiki.

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would probably be a marine nerf

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Good idea to me.

0.01% of what M46C can accomplish

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Well yeah and I’m sure MARSOC could do the job faster too, but that doesn’t usually factor into balance discussions does it?

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Time to do the maths and the testing as people argue about whether smartgun, m4ra smartscope, or mk2 better weapon

M4RA smartscope // Non-AP

106.56 dps up to 10 armor

It stays better then AP until 20 armor (warrior). 79.92 dps
At 25 armor it falls off so hard that its useless.

M4RA smartscope // AP


77.7 dps up to 40 armor.
You get what you pay for with IFF guns.

Mk2 // AP and Non-AP

Up to 15 ap, non-ap is better then AP mk2. It deals the same dps as ap mk2 at 20 ap.
150 dps against 10 armor targets.
113 dps against 20 armor targets.

113 dps up to 40 armor with AP ammo.

Smartgun Non-AP (it usually sucks)

Non-ap smartgun ammo does not have any penetration whatsoever, so it’s almost useless against warriors, losing half of its dps against warriors. Not to mention the falloff.

150 dps against 0 armor targets
75 dps against 20 armor targets

Smartgun AP ammo

100 dps up to 40 armor.

HOWEVER you have significant falloff, which combined with firerate - results in far slower time to kill. You lose 5 dps for every tile you move away from an enemy.

So 3 tiles away - thats 85 dps. 4 tiles? that’s 80 dps. And 75 dps at 5 tiles. VERY ass.

image

TLDR -

Summary

M4ra smartscope with AP is better around 4 tiles and far more economical. MK2 is always better then smartgun dps wise, and often way better because of smartgun’s debilitating falloff.

Assuming you can click twice a second - m4ra ap with smartscope will give you 70-77 dps.

smartgun AP loses 5 dps every tile moved. It starts at 100 dps but once your down to 4 tiles distance, it’s 80 dps. It still kills but way slower and they can move out of range. While wielded, your movespeed as smartgunner is not all that great.

Overall im pretty surprised at how well the guns perform - they’re slower then mk2 at killing, but do better then you might think. Especially when you consider they’re supportive fire weapons - this dps is ADDITIVE onto other riflemen’s dps, which results in massive dps stacks.

It also means however, that the smartscope m4ra is an underrated weapon, and if you consider smartgun powerful, you should consider smartscope powerful too.

Still the mk2 is a significantly higher dmg weapon, especially at range. So if a smartgunner has no teammates or is poorly positioned, it’s worse then just having a mk2. If a smartgunner has teammates that shoot, it can be better then a mk2, as it’s gauranteed dmg. If a smartgunner can’t position close to enemies, it’s worse then a mk2, as it has terrible falloff.

similarities to smg (yapping)

Smartgun is a big smg. If you hug the enemy with it, it will kill way easier then a smartscope m4ra. But then you’re not taking advantage of the IFF. Mk2 is often better in that situation, however the smartgun is a decent substitute gun.

Still arguably bad as your a high priority target - and very much risk getting cc chained, then permad.

So it’s very situational.

However the option of 4 tile supportive fire, or 1 tile active fire is useful, as it means you have some way to deal high dps when needed.

1 smartgun and 2 mk2s firing at once will probably result in instakill fronts against warriors. Or 1 smartscope gunner and 2 mk2s firing at once, will probably result in instakill fronts. And likely with greater reliability, as smartscope gunners can take second weapons too and don’t have to deal with falloff.

Smartscope gunners will have a more difficult time with backliners (harder to hit) // they can combat this by taking a mk2 secondary. (which also solves the sg’s dps problem). But smartgun will always be the easiest weapon to fight backliners with, as close range + iff + high volume of bullets is a winning combo there (and a bit excessive, as the close range also limits your solo-kill potential heavily).

final thoughts (yapping)

Still the SG is powerful because of its nvg binocs, farsight nvgs, and easy to hit volume of bullets. Farsight provides little utility to the smartgunner themself, as firing at farscoped targets is noob bait. But information wins battles.

You can use a smartscoper or smartgunner as a core to any unit, to add gauranteed dps to every other rifleman. This is great utility and ups effective firepower. However, a skilled rifleman might be better in many situations. The smartgun’s strength is when it can position closer to other marines, and protect them from xenos who try to break the front aswell as attack xenos who are close to the front.

It’s unlikely that a smartgunner will contribute heavily to a kill outside of finishing an injured xeno off, unless a xeno overextends heavily or underestimates the enemy. This is due to its low ranged dps.

However, a smartgunner will also contribute heavily when it pushes, as it closes the distance and does much higher dps. Ofc, this also reduces the size of the killzone, and lets xenos run away easier - so it’s a lose-lose, and unlikely to result in a kill, only a push. Still, that can’t be underestimated.

I’m probably missing a lot of minor details, tactics, etc. I do think doing well with this gun is pretty common because of its reliability and ease of use, but it’s situational. You can’t exactly argue it’s better then mk2, because it does not excel nearly as much as a mk2. You can’t exactly argue it’s better then smartscope, as smartscope has no falloff and can carry a second weapon easily.

It’s a highly specialized weapon, with a very specific niche.

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Our firearms have always been pretty decent when it comes to pure damage output. The issue has always simply been actually landing those bullets on target.

It’s one thing to kill a xeno in ~X seconds with ~Y bullets in a simulated environment with 0 ping, it’s another to actually get the kill in a live fire environment when, God forbid, you’re dealing with 200 to 300 ping.

I think M4RA IFF being not terrible is good information to glean however.

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Still, some nice raw data is always very very sexy. Even if its a controlled environment. Especially then.
Very impressive work @birb . Respect.

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i like how this turned from a discussion about adding a foxtrot smartgunner to a bunch of nerds posting statistics about smartgun

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While yes it is relatively easy to get fun fact kill counts as SG, if I were to grab 5 riflemen who are as competent as me, they would always outperform me alone. CM is designed around a small minority of players actually killing things, while the majority don’t actually contribute much.

This is why I specify the SG is the same skill level as the 5 RFN. 1 bald SG = shitty round impact, 1 good SG = incredible round impact, just as 5 bald RFN = feed the xenos, 5 good RFN = 5 60 second mega-kill montages with linkin park blasting.

The research I did for my guide, as well as the statistics posted by birb clearly show that an SG simply doesn’t have as big an impact as 5 RFN in a scenario where they are both equally likely to die. A good marine with balls who pushes will save almost as many people as a good SG.
Frankly speaking, the SG is not a powerful DPS gun. Anyone who claims the SG is doing the majority of the damage to a target in most combat encounters is mistaken- The gun is a fucking peashooter, as long as one MK2 marine is shooting, you’re only doing about 30-40% of the damage , total.

The video posted by Joe shows exactly what the SG is bad and good at- It’s good at finishing off paincrit xenos others wouldn’t be able to see/shoot, whilst being shit at doing damage (That’s a lot of bullets for a paincrit queen, add very strong warding and goodluck.) Whilst yes, it saves marines from being Brazil’d, half the time it’s from xenos fearRPing being hit, rather than actually being hurt badly.

Yes, M56Bs and Mk2s do different things, making them hard to compare, but I’d hardly say 1 of any SG are worth 5 whopping PFCs of the same skill level. On lowpop, that’s basically adding an entire squad into the game.

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