Played about 6-7 hours yesterday and didn’t see him at all. Is he a lowpop enjoyer or something?
I’ll be real. Someone else said it but what needs to happen is we revert the Tail-Stab stun removal, and reduce Vamp armour and speed. I guarantee this will better fix the ACTUAL issues with the caste instead of the stun removal which does not at all address the real issue.
11 Likes
Eh, at that point the caste stops being a frontline caste all together, and becomes a negative sidegrade to normal lurker. Like, it might be better against duos in the backline, but overall will just be worse overall to normal lurker.
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Frontline castes shouldn’t have both speed, damage, armor/tankyness, stun and on-demand teleport passively for a reason. Merging warrior with runner and with rav and its consequences.
Warrior doesn’t have them. Defender doesn’t have them. Ravager doesn’t have them. Prea doesn’t have them. Crusher doesn’t have them. Spitter doesn’t have them.
Gotta let something go in exchange.
Buff HP so that it almost survives two PBs with nerfed armor, its a T2 caste after all, assuming normal vampire engagements, getting a small heal after getting PB’ed once lets you survive the second PB.
Or leave vampire as it is, but change so rush can’t be used to teleport anywhere, only next to a marine, similarly to lunge. Caste fixed yet again.
Rav actually have all four, but with more HP and armour instead of speed, so donno about that. But also a lot of the other castes have one thing (cept ravager) that trumps every vampire player, and makes a pure vamp frontline (even without the nerfs) useless. They have 0 capping potential, and 0 marine displacement. They are 100% damage and thats it.
But as it currently stands, there is only one player who uses it effectivly, with an apparent number of people who SAY they use it well but are never mentioned in game, LRC, or anywhere else. And at this point, unless you wanna make the caste essentially ONLY decent or balanced when a “pro” player uses it, it will become a dead class, with some people who may be able to use it as a warrior.
It’s a lurker strain, it shouldn’t be a frontline caste. Its caste is literally about backlining
Then i would say that its gonna be worse then normal lurker if you do what cabal says. If it has no disengage, no backline. No armour, no frontline. No speed, no nothing. Like, you have to pick and choose what you want with it, and then actually make it good for it.
Man, yet again you merge two sentences into one when it comes to my posts and then come out with a conclusion that nobody made.
Does it say that vampire should have less armor, less speed, no frontlining etc?
No it does not, are you doing that on purpose?
I only said to rework rush a bit and leave vamp as it is without any nerfs, or buffs. Now I think even might add him his stun back with that anyway.
I added to steelpoint’s idea to BUFF vampire HP after his nerfs. Or leave vampire as it is and then rework rush. It is not that hard to understand, I bet ChatGPT could understand that correctly.
Have all four, but not all five, doesn’t have the speed that is king in SS13, so it is a big of a deal. Not only it doesn’t have speed, it is slow as fuck, especially if not on weeds. That is base rav who is balanced by having to empower themselfs.
Berserk doesn’t have any stuns, doesn’t have passive speed (only activated ability) and no teleport on demand.
Hedgehog doesn’t have passive armor, doesn’t have stuns, no teleports…
Even T3 caste isn’t a jack of all trades.
Are you doing that on purpose, are you just a forum troll?
I’ve made my proposed changes: Vampire Lurker Changes (TailStab/Armour/Speed) by Steelpoint · Pull Request #6597 · cmss13-devs/cmss13 · GitHub
Maybe the strain needs its charge abilities’ range reduced but I’ll let other’s comment on that.
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This is your response to “Reduce vamp speed and armour”
When you said before that vamp already survives two PBs because of their armour, but you want them to have enough HP to get critted from full health (Presumably) by two Pbs of buckshot (with no armour). So overall, its an effective hp loss, since it survives less then it did before.
also what? Did you forget its the second highest armour class in the game or something? It has 25 base armour, with 15 bonus from shards.
But just to talk about the entire paragraph you decided to completely ignore, the caste is litterary only good with one person, who managed to find their one xeno they are especially competant in (Imagine your BOOs, WAR, L, etc.) and shows how good the caste can be if you have not only an amazing player playing it, but also minmaxing all support buffs you could give it. Because as it stands, the caste used by normal people, or just normal xeno players, its just kinda shit tbh. Saying this as a lurker thats almost prime, because you can at best poke every 30-40 seconds with your flurry and tail stab (if you hit them) on the front before you have to lunge away because you get shot by every marine on the front. I legitimatly want everyone who thinks vamp is overpowered to actually try the caste, and tell me how much damage you do BECAUSE you are a vamp, and not a warrior or lurker.
No, it is not. It is a response to Steelpoint’s post providing an alternative to reducing armor and speed.
This is a response to “reduce vamp speed and armour”. If you reduce his armor without buffing HP, vamp dies to two PBs even if he heals. I proposed a BUFF to vamp HP if this gets testmerged, so that vamp can tank one PB, heal with Flurry and then tank another PB, while unbuffed vamp would die to second PB despite landing Flurry.
Let me phrase it again: I proposed BUFF to VAMPIRE LURKER if Steelpoint’s pull request would get testmerged.
No, I don’t want to NERF current lurker by just taking his HP and nothing else.
My response to Buff HP was a DIRECT response to Steelpoint’s proposal of reducing armour and speed.
I’m basing my opinion on hedge rav based on wiki, never played it otherwise. Wiki state it has no passive armor, but that could be just a wiki thing.
Anyway, yeah, you have that “GOTCHA!” moment, hedgehog has passive. All my arguments are invalid. I admit it, Hedgehog rav has passive armor, he doesn’t have speed, teleport, stun and much damage (unless marines shoot it when shield is up).
Because normal xeno players are shit. Just as normal marine players are shit.
Guess what, everything gets nerfed if one person is super good at it. You know Specs? Oh why, oh why we can’t put scopes on SADAR anymore?
You know stims? Oh why, oh why they were nerfed? Is it because any rando made god stims, or certain invidividuals released their autism on it?
You know maxcaps? Oh why, oh why they were nerfed?
You know shotgun juggling?
Then why don’t they stomp everyone as rav, as prea, as drone, as runner, as defender, as spitter, as boiler, as burrower, as hivelord, as carrier, as queen, as crusher, as lurker, as acid runner, as steelcrest defender, as resin whisperer, as eggsac carrier, as charger crusher, as hedgehog rav, as berserk rav, as sentinel, as trapper boiler, as prae, as dancer prae, as warden prae, as opressor prae, as vanguard, as healer drone, as gardener drone, huh?
Why they don’t achieve that as warrior, huh?
And I want legitimately everyone who thinks slug is a counter to vamp lurker to actually try the shotgun shell and tell me how much use it has.
You have multiple people saying that it is broken, you have staff member baking up pull request nerf, you already had one nerf in the not so distant past and such.
I have my own experiences with plethora vamp lurkers (not the OWL, funny enough) and they act like a tanky runner with a lot of damage and heals midcombat, but are harder to PB (smaller sprite). In 2v1 I would rather fight a warrior than a vamp.
Sadar is fair i guess? Since being stunned instantly off screen without any warning is shit from both sides. Stimms? Any researcher with more then 10 hours in can make a stim good enough to end the game. The only parts about it which got nerfed, was muscle and nerve stimmulants (but they are still good, and with the credit buff with xeno surgery, you can basicly get to the same tier of speed/knockdown immunity as before). Maxcaps are still hella strong, and is still the “Xenogibber 1000”. Shotgun juggling ONLY affected people who were already good. It didn’t affect john marine just trying to play with shotguns.
Same reason why i sometimes get fun facted with lurker, but not with spitter, drone, runner, boiler, prea, rav, crusher, queen, king, defender, sentinel. Since just because you are really good with one caste that dosn’t automaticly translate to being amazing at all castes. Like what kind of argument even is that. You expect BOO the lurker main and lurker only player to somehow be some god at playing anything else?
Never once brought up slugs, but you do you. But still, these nerfs are mostly about one player using it well. And most of the people saying its broken, are the ones playing against them.
And talking about speed, they are only slightly faster then lurker off invis. and thats not even particularly fast as someone with light armour off weeds are as fast as them.
Also having 10 people on the forums (and D-chat whenever OWL is around) being the basis of your argument of “Multiple people say its broken, so thereby it is”, is flawed as all hell. Can’t wait to tell xenocord that we can nerf most marine guns by banding up 10 people on the forums, and bitch about the Mk1, EA2, M2C, scout, SADAR, etc.
It is good that boiler neuro direct hit glob is not offscreen and stun in that case… Unless?
If that would be the case, researcher would be nerfed ASAP.
Not as strong as they used to.
But it was still nerfed because some guys were very, very good at it, not because any rando could easly pull it off. And it still affects any rando would would like to try it.
Just like no-armor neuro stun. It effects everyone, but competent no-armor marines were why it was nerfed.
Those did affect John Marine.
Nerfs to such strats ONLY happen when certain individuals find a nieche and exploit it.
You know slug nerfs? Some vets juggled buckshot and slug shotguns, so EVERYONE using one shotgun filled with slugs suffers. Do you see slug mains tears somewhere? Only when xenomains call it the greatest counter to everything.
Nobody nerfs a newly invented stuff if it isn’t too good.
Yup. Xenos aren’t THAT much different gamplaywise one from another, especially combat castes. If you have good tactical sense to be a beast lurker, you have enough experience to be a good warrior, or spitter.
Lurker is just a runner that has cloack and is slightly slower.
Sure, runner combat experience doesn’t translate to boiler and vice-versa but lets not act like Vamp lurker is apples to Warrior oranges, or like Defender is soooooo much different in gameplay to sentinel.
If you are good at one xeno caste, you are decent at them all, because they all require some level of the same combat experience, how to use corners, how to fight flamers, how to fight buckshot, positioning, movement, body blocking etc.
No, you didn’t, but your xenomain brethren did.
In this, or some other threads about vamp lurker you have people claiming on OWL’s behalf (supposedly) that even he considers Vamp broken and abuses caste to get it nerfed.
I say it is the most broken caste. The only good thing that came out of vampire is that now I see how Warrior is balanced and could easly be fucked up to OP. Cheers to devmemes who made it that way, it wasn’t obvious.
Mod made a pull request nerf. Isn’t that significant?
They already do that and you are a living proof. In this case it is bitching that something is not broken when it just ticks all the boxes.
why remove the speed AND armor?
just do one or the other imo.
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note the “Instant” and “Without any warning”. The glob is slow enough that you can move away from it. The only way you would get stunned is due to bodyblock of marines, or that you charge right into it.
It has been the case for the entire time research has been a thing. The only thing holding it back is IOs and how long marines hold the ground.
Good
Thats just false though. Like sure, you might know the game intrisnictly better, but generally speaking unless you have as many hours in warrior as in lurker, you will be a lot worse in the other. And comparing the high speed, need to accuratly click the fast moving pixels around you, dodge every bullet vampire, to the much slower “I pounce then i do wombo combo in a brisk pace” warrior, then I can’t see how you would compare them like that. They have two very distinct play styles that don’t really overlap except “they are both frontliners, and marines hate them”.
so moot point, and again, donno why you brought it up. Xeno players aren’t an actual hivemind like the marine players.
no, as they are not in charge of balance, nor do you get a completely unbiased opinion from them. The only one i sort of trust to be completely unbiased is Biolock, but he is a special case.
I am one of maybe 3-4 people on this entire thread saying that it ain’t op. Donno how this is akin to start 3-4 threads about how X is OP and should be nerfed to the point nobody will play it since the original caste, or other castes in general are objectivly better at their job.
Just dodge it TRADEMARK.
So something balances it out and it doesn’t fall upon, one, or two players to be very strong? Curious.
Yes, the same brand of “GOOD” when vamp gets nerfed.
It is the same, one has just it easier to pull off because he is faster. Playing as runner you get all of that experience you need for Vamp. Playing any generic frontline xeno makes you good at the others. Just as playing a rifleman makes you a good direct combat marine groundside.
Even as defender you gotta learn to evade bullets, you do have tools to deal with that in other ways, but not getting hit at all trumps tanking a hit every single time.
They both dodge bullets, they both utilise corners, they both fight flamers, they both fight buckshot, they both fight sentries. The playstyle is basically the same, but because warrior is much, much slower, you can’t do what runner does. They even have simillar abilities.
Warrior hate is unjustified, vamp hat is justified.
I brought it because I have wishes as you do, but they won’t be granted.
Moot point.
And one of maybe 3-4 people who are objectively wrong.
Cry me a river of how many marine things were removed this way.
By the way, why you didn’t respond, or even mention that supposedly even OWL says vamp is OP?
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It is actually dodgeable unlike SADAR missiles (unless you move right before he shoots somehow). Again, you missed the “Without warning”, or with an adative, “Actually dodgeable”. If the SADAR missile was as slow as the glob, I wouldn’t care if you gave it the B8 tbh.
Again, this is broadly speaking of the entire research dynamic, but the nerf YOU pointed out actually buffed them since they now have to rely LESS on IOs surviving, and more on the general marine population bringing back xeno bodies (One T3 body is almost 5 credits which is insane, added with the fact you can scan its blood for 4-6 more research for the first time). they also BUFFED research with flame chems beign absurds, to the point you see it every match.
Again, I don’t think you’ve ever played one of these castes, and just play against them, making all your points surrounding it. Its litterary comparing an assassin style gameplay to a bruiser style gamplay in a MOBA. One is a lot more different then the other, and if you still disagree, then I agree to disagree i guess?
like look at this “They both do generic xeno thing, Utilize generic xeno tactics, fight generic enemies, fight generic weapons, fight generic enemies 2#”. Might as well compare Boiler to Rav. They both fight on the front, they both fight M41As, they both utilize doors to do attacks on approaching marines, they both fight sentries, they both are T3s. Basicly the same caste but one has a ranged attack.
Wierd, but nobody asked. Take that up with someone who did.
Not really since you based your argument that a mod, who you think is some higher power when it comes to realizing balance, isn’t so.
Damn, got me there. I’m just arguing with someone who is objectivly wrong.
and how many xeno things were just straight up ripped appart because of it. Shaman, Boxer, Sentinel, Warrior, Lurker, Queen and Prea have all either been nerfed significanlty (Sentinal just kinda sucks overall now, Warrior got its lunge and abilites nerfed to hell and back, Lurker became much less of a 1v1 caste, and more of a “If i get tuched i die” caste, Most of the Prea castes were nerfed in terms of ability usability, or straight up damge, and Queen lost most of her armour to make her much easier to kill), or were just straight up nerfed and never comming back (Boxer and Shaman).
Because i’m not gonna argue HIS opinions with you.
Ahhhh, the warning. The glob shooting out of the darkness you might have a tiny chance to sidestep if you just happen to look at the direction it will come from. Then just turn the volume on SADAR offscreen so when you hear the shoot, you have exactly the same ammount of time as noticing boiler glob flying at you from 5 tiles away.
Natural course of the game like CM, things get introduced, then they got tested in a span of several days/weeks/even months and then they get balanced (unless it impacts WL).
If research is OP, it will get nerfed. Sooner, or later.
I did, it is not MOBA. The “Assasin style gameplay” is just additional tool in individual combat xeno arsenal. Being very good at one combat caste means you are competent at all of them. Road from being competent to being good is short.
Defender and lurker need the same sets of basic skills and tactical awarness to get by. The rest is just finetunning and using the set of tools you are presented.
But some unexplained “preference” for certain individual players to use a caste to achieve tremendous feats doesn’t exist.
People with too much time and probably a higher degree autism than regular SS13 player flock to the OP stuff like flies to the shit.
They don’t happen to have a preference to certain caste, or piece of gear and then suddently make it so good that it is perceived as OP. Because you can’t squeeze most of the stuff ingame to something like that. Defender, or Boiler doesn’t have skill ceiling high enough to achieve what vampire can. That is why WHO OWL THE BOO FUC KCA RES doesn’t play Defender, or Boiler, because it can’t be abused.
This is why no marine main vet autist takes M4RA with b8 scope, that is why they don’t take pulse rifle with bipod, those players go for the stuff that they can use to be powerfull. It is not that this stuff gets powerfull because they use it.
Find the biggest god among xenos and tell him to abuse Sentinel. Get him 10 drone GFs healing him, giving him fruits and pheros, let Queen on ovi make him leader, constantly heal them, build stuff around him, do whatever, they will never become OP.
No they don’t. It is like saying Sniper spec fight on the front the same like buckshot marine.
Could have say the same about your wish for everyone to play vamp lurker.
Because a mod is not just some forum random. I put trust in CM staff, it is a shame that you don’t (besides some one guy).
We will see after Vamp nerf gets speedmerged and everyone will be happy (besides 3-4 people).
Both sides suffer, because this is the fairest thing that can happen. If both sides complain, it is balanced, or still broken. No other way. Since complaints stop shortly, the former is true.
You can even see that in action with vamp in real time. People complain about vamp lurker, xenomains say it is fine, one of the vamp abilities gets nerfed, people still complain about vamp lurker, xenomains complain about the nerf. Time passes, people still complain about vamp lurker and xenomains still complain about the nerf, means that it wasn’t good enough and it is still broken.
With Steelpoint’s pull request either marines stop complaining and xenomains still do, so vamp will get a small buff so that both sides complain again, or both sides complain after the first nerf, so it will mean it is balanced.
Because it makes your argument of “REEE 10 marinemains cry it is OP when it is not, only good players make it good” invalid.
My god, please, stop. These posts are getting longer everytime. Just agree to disagree, please.
5 Likes
Fine enough. I’m happy with your pull request nerf. I hope it will be balanced and if not, slight buff, especially to the HP I mentioned earlier.
Xenotears will be delicious.