Separate Pilot Points + All Parachutes at Hangar roundstart

Development Ideaguys
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Shared Dropship / Gunship Points Pool - Ongoing Problems

I want to raise an issue that comes up fairly often with pilots, especially when you have both a Dropship Pilot and a Gunship Pilot active in the same round.

Right now, both pilots share:

  • One fabricator with a pool of points for upgrades and equipment

Those points regenerate slowly, and there’s no real backup way to get more beyond converting intel, which most people avoid doing because CAS spending is usually worse value than OBs.

On paper that’s fine, but in practice it causes a lot of friction, unclear expectations and avoidable conflict between pilots.

What is the problem?

Pilots share a fabricator for the dropships.

This is an issue because, by design, both parties rely on a slowly regenerating resource, with no defined allocation or split. Over time, an informal expectation has emerged that the majority of points belong to the Gunship Pilot, despite the pool being shared.

This creates a social and mechanical pressure that disproportionately affects Dropship Pilots, especially newer or late-joining ones.

Problems caused by the current system

  • Late Joining pilots often wake up to an empty or near empty pool, with no ability to outfit their craft because all points were already spent

  • Pilots feel pressure to spend points as soon as possible “before the other pilot does”, which turns a shared resource into a race instead of cooperation.

  • Dropship Pilots, especially newer ones, get pushback for spending anything beyond the free dropship upgrades and maybe a turret or two - often at the cost of their own enjoyment or utility (for example, extra fulton capacity, med-evac, GAU, etc). This is akin pressuring Bravo marines more than a magazine or two because Alpha wants them for every single other magazine incase they need them later, despite them both having access and them being ample supply.

  • Can increase staff workload, some individuals see both dropships using a fair or equal number of points as grief to the other pilot, despite precedent stating otherwise, resulting in ahelps.

  • Encourages meta chasing - Any perceived “reduction in effectiveness” of the gunship due to the dropship spending more points can lead to IC and LOOC arguments. This has also contributed to stagnation in experimentation, many pilots still don’t realise, for example, that matching dropship upgrades like fuel enhancements stack, because deviating from the expected “meta” is discouraged.

Different potential Solutions:

1: Separate Pools / Fabricators With Limited Transfer

Give DPs and GPs separate point pools (and potentially separate fabricators), with the option for manual point transfer between terminals if balance allows. If not, no transfer at all.

This solution would:

  • Fully remove point ownership ambiguity

  • Follow existing CM design patterns (personal vendors, role-scoped resources)

  • Reduce staff workload

  • Encourage actual cooperation and communication, while reducing friction/conflict

  • Reduce pressure on both new and old pilots

  • Discourage meta-chasing, increases creativity/experimental loadouts, making rounds more unique.

  1. Reserve Protection / Minimum Guarantees

Introduce protected point reserves so that:

  • A minimum number of points are always available per dropship,

  • The rest of the points are “no-mans land” as currently is

This would:

  • Allow flexibility without both pilot’s present

  • Protect late joining pilots

  • Keep the system similar yet add some QoL

And finally, all parachutes, including cargos supply, should be available in the hangar from roundstart, with an increase in the amount you also start with (and the option to buy more like normal from cargo.

The number of times I’ve seen command staff, including whitelisted COs, get frustrated because an operation, they’ve painstakingly planned falls apart/be delayed because Cargo is extremely busy at roundstart, is extremely high. The marines usually get frustrated with these situations as well, and this usually can leave a sour taste in everyone involved mouth. (inb4 just grab the chutes yourself)

14 Likes
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I think both of these are equitable solutions.

I would say transferring points between is debatable. It could end up with a social obligation to give the GP most of your points as DP, and would need SOP regulation. Something like “neither pilot officer cannot be ordered to transfer points to the other.“

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I think overall you should interact with other players to get what you want and it should always be a thoughtful decision when you take some limited resource. For example, I prefer AP magazine boxes you can take mags from and potentially leave other players without AP to techwebs approach, where every player could freely get their stuff from the droppod without the risk of being robbed. But I do think some minimal guaranteed pool is probably not a bad idea. Second suggestion feels optimal to me.

Maybe ASO/aCO should be the one splitting points between two roles, as the both pilots superior. But maybe they already have too many tasks.

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@Clockworks Safe guards for additional measures or clauses are great to have for when systems which have the potential to be exploited, it saves a problem later if you implement it with the changes, I agree.

@ihatethisengine Player agency is important, however this does not extend to every role equally. OTs metal cannot be used for FOB, this rule was added because players would take this metal to fortify the FOB, usually without their permission or before they woke up, this locked the OT out of their duties, almost completely unless they jumped through hoops.

Having an ASO/aCO splitting the points would likely delay first drop, introduce more strain on those roles, as well as additional friction (e.g, explaining why you need x, y, z). The Pilots could still print additional things for the other pilot.

Example:, Pilot one asks Pilot 2 if he has any points spare and if he does, to print an additional med-evac due to mass infested),

…Replacing the pure mechanical “I ran to console first and printed 11 airborne sentries” before the pilots even know what commands plan is

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is this true?

i used to do this all the time but everyone says it’s not true

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Completely agree with both of the points here, I’ve had to tell DPs that the fabricator belongs to them too and they don’t have to ask me if they want to print 1 turret.

on the issue of chutes, maybe pilots could buy them using their points instead of getting them roundstart? there’s really not much you buy for points in the pilot prep room, and most of the options are useless for you unless its hijack.

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What if we just make all DP upgrades free and lower the points and only apply them to GP weapons/ammo.

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It’d likely require rebalancing around that, with quite a few tests to find a right balance.

It’d also clash with the intended use for weapons and equipment which were not just to be exclusive to GP, which is why some of the weapons and equipment are able to be fired/used during transport. From GAU/Laz/Fulton/Medevac/Fulton. If they were lumped in to that method, it could inadvertently cause more pressure on the GPs points as well as potentially reducing the things a DP can do.

It would also take away potential flexibility from both pilots and/or command, if they wanted to try a novel idea, and many novel ideas in the past have ended up being part of the core gameplay loop eventually.

For example. 3 med-evacs used at an isolated comms to extract an isolated squad during a siege. This is a theoretical idea you can do currently. It may not be possible if we’re making the first of each module free (which it is already, to be honest) and the rest coming out of the GPs reduced budget

If we are making sentries free to print out? Well, that is massively abuseable. as you can hotswap them during hijack, as soon as one turret is damaged, you can change it out for another.

I appreciate that idea, but that method would likely require a lot more work than other solutions, and likely be a nerf to pilots overall, despite sounding simple as first glance

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I especially like this idea because it’d give an actual reason to strap guns to the Alamo instead of turrets, since it would be viable for it to provide additional fire support without guzzling all the Normandy’s ammo supply.

Anything that could make DP more engaging to play, I’m all for, so I like it.

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Yes, it is true. The second one will have reduced effect because they’re multiplicative though.

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DPs definitely need something to have fun with, otherwise you’re just a better autopilot

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Pilots feel pressure to spend points as soon as possible “before the other pilot does”

Well, it’s not at first place. The problem is more simple than that - as GP, you don’t have much time to reload, if you use a cooling upgrade. I will just spend all points on ammo and place it around CAS to make reload a way more faster.

Dropship Pilots, especially newer ones, get pushback for spending anything beyond the free dropship upgrades and maybe a turret or two - often at the cost of their own enjoyment or utility (for example, extra fulton capacity, med-evac, GAU, etc)

True. The problem is, DP as role not needed AT ALL. 3 turrets and autopilot will work well enough, except evac.

Solution 1 - okay but:
If we will split current balance, it will kill CAS (we don’t have much points NOW, if we will split it between two pilots, they will just shoot it in first 15-20 minutes after drop).

But if we will just clone current balance to DP, that will make second CAS. Cool for me, not cool for xeno and balance :patrice:.

Solution 2 - debatable. Don’t get me wrong, I got the point, but:

  1. How much there will be in reserve?
  2. To buy what? Two gau with a bit of ammo? Really?

Main problems here:

  • GP = DP, but DP have zero rights in using weapons (I know, I know, he can buy and use guns, BUT this will kill CAS budget just because there is more points that we will spend on guns, and those are expensive).
  • Budget itself sucks ass. You will use all your points, get nothing except some weeds/walls/marines/etc, and… that’s it. Your gameplay is over. Regeneration of points is too slow to make you something AT WHOLE ROUND. You have only three ways:
    1. Sell your engines/guns/DCC and buy new ammo. Sad but fair.
    2. Wait.
    3. Beg CO for CAS budget.
      You have no instruments to make new ammo. You have nothing to do. This is just… boring, you know?

There is some fixes about it in new CAS update, but still, this won’t fix the problem with budget, this will make it even worse.

Why? Bellygunner. New funny thing, literally GAU on direct hits in your cockpit. And the DP, I’m sure in 100%, will use it. => more points to spend not on CAS => we are doomed.

So, I want to represent you the third solution: Separate fabricators AND stuff in them.

What do I mean? Let’s say the CAS will still use it’s stuff - GAU, lasers, minis, rockets, etc. But we will just ban all guns except really little one’s (bellygunner for example) for Alamo. You just can’t place big weapons on it.

Alamo, and the DP’s first job is to move from Almayer to FOB and back, right? So, no flyby. Then we should ban all guns that’s have to be used in flyby, but let it use all others. As I can remember, direct hits still might be fired in transit, but maybe there will be any more weapons to use only on Alamo?

I know, it’s still not the best option, but I hope you got the point.

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I was drawn to try the DP role because, well, it did appear to be a rather dull role on the surface and I like to try roles which have a confused identity, a lack of content or are rather just weak. The DP can be that… if we force it to be that, but it doesn’t have to be and has not been designed to be that by the original dropship overlord designers.

So, I’ve done extensive testing on this regarding dropship pilots doing “limited CAS” support” (of varying loadouts, from 4x GAU to 1xGAU - with Alamo usually firing extremely rarely, aka, on “GOD FLARES” - AKA, best of the best - hive is all sleeping on a flare…or some tests, an occasional direct with 1x GAU to save a marine being captured). Budget is in most situations, was not an issue. I even broke down the mathematics of it on a report about this very thing with the most expensive alamo loadout. The rounds I have encountered which budget was scenarios where GPs used the most expensive loadouts and blew their load prematurely (like, 10-20 minutes after deployment somehow) rather than being more selective with targets. These pilots nearly always ran into budget issues even after Alamo was cannibalised for additional resources despite getting a sizeable return in the budget. There were other fringe cases, such as longer operations , certain maps where CAS was used more akin to C4/Satchel charges (which, using a limited resource to do is poor logistics, mortar can do that as well as the various other tools ground units have) and tests where

I do believe that the “regeneration” system being the single resource for pilots is an issue, as I stated in the post, but if this is implemented, I had plans on a suggestion for having the Shipside Engineering Team be able to make standard ammo (or a slightly weaker version ammo) for the pilots. That would also solve the issue with MTs having no real role also and likely make MTs service the dropships as well (DCCS would be more able to learn more about piloting too!). Failing that, a system for finding “research grant” papers like what research has for credits on the colony, or allowing cargo to order more. (Potentially an intel tech thing, eg, unlock enhanced cargo options)

I do sympathise with your points here, but taking food from your neighbour to put more food on your table isn’t a good long-term solution and doesn’t deal with the very issues you’ve raised here, even with your proposed solution. Dealing with the root cause rather than the symptom will leave everyone in a better and more enjoyable position, and not limit the roles nor creativity of pilots, command and the playerbase as a whole.

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I agree with idea of making ammo. Weaker or not, the main objective is to give pilots gameplay.

I agree with idea of findings grants.

Anything, but make CAS gameplay more accesible for both pilots.

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You can do a lot as a DP actually. Especially on lowpop. Deployable sentries rock and you unlike the GP can actually be arsed to personally pick the locations for FOB sentries (yeah imagine that, you don’t actually need god-handholding-sentries at all, you can drop them yourself) and you can also cooperate with whoever is on comms to drop a sentry there. On lowpop this can be a big deal. It is still useful on highpop as well.

The issue is always budget. Yes, on paper there is never a reason to spend a single point on transport really. CAS can win you the offensive, transport at best can provide you some shitty insurance you may not ever need, or it may just not be enough anyway. I had rounds where fucking doorguns allowed us to hold the FOB for another hour, but that’s a rather rare case. Meanwhile CAS is doing work constantly, even if it is just breaking xeno walls. So with every point you spend as a DP you are just griefing your team (I am gold DP btw). Sad but true. So yeah, something needs to be done.

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I don’t know about these suggestions, I like the second idea more then the first anyway. I do personally think that the point’s per minute should be increased just a tiiiny bit. Or the intel purchase to be cheaper/give them more. I wonder if there could also be some sort of new attachment that would be uniquely beneficial to a DP on the Alamo, which would provide them something to do and provide game impact. What that would be, I’m not creative enough to think of.

But also, I think some DP pilots are kinda lazy. If all a person is playing DP for is to sit in their pilot chair, go up and down and wait too long during evac letting the queen lock the console, then they’re not using the slot to its max potential. You can drag on dead bodies and intel, yell at Bravo for how messy the FOB is, do some medic-ing, place a Wey-Med at FOB, place down a couple strategic deployable turrets. This isn’t to say that DP shouldn’t have any changes made to it, but if you don’t enjoy any of the former things then maybe it just isn’t the role for you.

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Deployable sentries, I want to like them, I do…Once as a GP and DP blew the whole budget on turrets on LV. It was funny, but their usage is rather limited. I’d argue their main use is merely a portable camera for the CIC to watch a flank in the LZ. Fortifying at the front usually has them being destroyed rather swiftly and without much effect.

Unfortunately, their usage is extremely niche and within only 2-3 sentries, they quickly lose their value unless their are 0 spotters and no GP. They are ironically more budget hungry than an Alamo using a full GAU AP loadout.

I do understand some people do see it as “griefing” for not following the most optimal route, as they have quite a few things over the years, but I do think that type of thinking is at a detriment to the server. Nobody looks back years later and remembers the rounds you chose the optimal loadout and killed a few more xenos than usual and steamrolled them. They generally remember the rounds where something unique, unusual or against the odds happened.

That being said, I do think the design can take away from the GPs ability to apply pressure, by, in essence, encouraging meta-chasing. This is something which I remember even plagued me when I CO’ed, as due the equipment and the (once much more) outdated CIC, I felt that if I did not deploy, I was putting my side at a major disadvantage because of how busted the kit once was. Thankfully, the council+devs seem to have made and continues to make steps to address that. DP/GP does feel like that type of dynamic currently.

@IamDood I personally thing the things you have listed are, well, very limited content. Dragging corpses, if not done by the people on FOB as you land, takes a couple of seconds to lod and unload. Telling bravo the FOB is a couple of seconds, the Wey-Med at FOB is a one time thing. And well, turrets are not very engaging, and run in to the same “value” threat to GPs.

Very few DPs these days use the role as an “AFK role”, perhaps maybe someone trying the role and not really knowing what to do, nor having the courage to go against the grain and experiment. Many of the things you described are things which take maybe 2-5 seconds/one time things/not engaging. If you mentioned Fulton and/or Medevacs. They would be engaging content. They require a little bit more co-ordination, interaction with other players, as well as some urgency.

And always remember…:The salience bias: You always remember and notice people not doing things. (eg, the medic who walked over you/your friend to unga) but dont notice the other 8 medics doing their job treating other people when you drop them off/get treated.

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