Spreading the t3 love

This is a continuation on a conversation I had in discord last night somewhere

Ravs are consistently the best frontline t3 for the most amount of situations by a long shot. I’m talking about a greater team wise perspective here. I know theres players that can pop off with dancer and vanguard arguably more than ravs can, but I’m talking from a team perspective here.

So what do I mean by team perspective. Well I mean that with a given amount of t3 slots, how can the hive best keep the aggression or fend off the marine push, without assuming what equipment the marines have, and assuming any skill level in xenos.

So what about the rav makes it consistently better than all other t3s? Well I think one of the biggest niches it fills is its fireproofness. Fire these days is very available to marines, with incend kits, UBF, and of course the pyro. Yes, most good xeno players have the game sense to be able to safely cross fire, go in, and go out. But generally speaking fire is a serious source of fearrp for xenos. And there are good pyro players who know how to use blueflame which can easily kill even t3s if they dont expect it. A rav, even in the hands of a new player wont fearrp and they are a lot more combat effective while on fire than other t3s.

Additionally they have two strains which are a lot more effective for new players than crusher or praetorian. Again, we have to assume any possible skill level here. Base rav is easy to dish out damage and tanky enough that they can afford to make mistakes. Hedgehog is really easy, you dont even need to slash to do well as a new t3 player. Just run in, shield, run out and you’ve probably got a bunch of crit marines most of the time. Stacking all your t3s with ravs is very very strong for the hive, something you don’t see with the other t3s. The only downside there is, is that rav is stuck behind an evo line where they are fairly difficult to grasp and/or die often.

Praetorians are either not very strong, difficult to grasp, or glass cannons. Base strain, im going to be real, could be replaced with a spitter and have the same effect. Yeah, its a lot less skill to spit then acid spray, and it has more health and slash damage overrall, but again, from a overrall team perspective its slot could be so much more. Vanguard and dancer (especially) have an effective skill requirement which you wont find easily in most hives. Oppressor is niche, it can help get a lot of captures for the hive if they’re good, but its abilities are most effective picking off marines one by one, or at the very least making a group fuck off away from you defensively.

Crushers are just, weak. they’re the tankiest t3 for sure, they can bodyblock for the hive like a defender would. But on the offensive theres better choices. Often times the map is too open, and their wide slashes from what I’ve observed rarely catch more than 2 at a time, and in most situations you want to focus on having one person dead rather than damaging multiple people. 3 injured marines can still kill you and rush you down fairly easily, but 1 dead marine and 2 healthy marines is a lot more different, as now 1 of them is probably dragging the body, and theres less bullets being shot into you.

So whats my point? I’d like all the frontline t3s to be equally good choices for any given xeno player. Crusher could use some love. And I think some general fire resistance buff in some sorts (multiple ways to approach this) for the other two frontline t3s would go a long way in reducing the reliance on ravs. Hell this could even lead with a individual t3 caste limit, to stop rav stacking, or even stop times where you have 4 boilers which is hamstringing the effectiveness of the hives t3 slots.

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praetorian, base strain, is easily one of the most survivable and strongest pressure generating T3’s in the game - even better than ravager

it is the only T3 that is always going to be attacking, that is always going to be unkillable no matter what HP it has or where it is, and the only T3 that is an actual skirmisher

you have high slash damage, a dash, and one of the best ranged kits in the game, alongside some of the best strains in the game - this is part of praetorians strength, it is adaptable and can do many things. if you need to siege the FOB, reset strain and become one of the best barricade destroyers. if you need to capture or kill priority targets, go vanguard. if the hive isn’t survivable or you are worried about stuns, go valkyrie

crusher suffers more from the terrain than inherently being bad, it can be strong in certain situations but requires specific environments to work

this is not to say that ravager is not the best, but there’s always GOING to be a best caste for general situations - and ravager just happens to be the best at killing, specifically berserker

crusher is the best at delaying or slowing in certain environments
praetorian is the best at being adaptable and being the best pressure generator/supportive T3/independent T3 even - it is far, far better than spitter, and unlike other T3’s can work on its own far better. a crusher caught off weeds or out of position is dead, a zerker out of position with people who know how to kill it is dead, a praetorian can escape

also, hedgehog even for new players is not good
it is not good at all, it only really works against people who genuinely do not know what it does - otherwise it is a joke and is worse than base or berserker even in the hands of a new player. as long as they can slash they will do better if they just follow the queen and slash stunned people

any form of t3 stacking or caste stacking is also overpowered, look at praetorian stacks or boiler stacks for instance

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The way i see it; praes win battles, and ravagers win wars - Sun Tzu, probably

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Praes have more utility than ravs. Ravs are both tanky and have a lot of damage, but like oppressor/vanguard can get a ton of caps/permakills just by existing, valk nullifies SADAR, dancer is… err… let’s not talk about dancer. I think praes are in a good place right now. Boilers are also useful, there is no denial. Crushers though… Base is not tanky enough to justify his insanely slow speed. If anyone on your screen loads AP, you just die. You can’t run away, shield is not reliable (it breaks very fast when shot at). Charger is better because of the ability to simply run away.

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Rav just sort of became the best direct combat T3 and for the sake of balance it has to stay this way. And if it is to stay this way, then rav has to take all of those adventages it has to be the backbone of the hive, which makes crusher stay weak. He has to be tanky and he is almost as tanky as crusher and has built-in system against natural crusher counter, that being flames.

If you nerf ravs and then even overbuff crushers, xenos will crumble. Remove rav fire immunity and add it to crusher, might be a fun experiment though.

Boiler is unique due to being an artillery, can’t really give love to boilers in exchange for nerfing rav. Prae seems like a support, or big spitter etc.


I think the best solution ties to talks about Queen. Nerf her combat effectivenes, then buff T3s that aren’t ravs.

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I see any T3 that isn’t Rav/Boiler and my only thought is “Oh that guys playing for fun, that’s nice.”

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Rav is undoubtably overtuned and the strongest T3 by a large margin, but I think its power relative to other T3s, namely boiler and praetorian is not nearly as big a problem as how weak crusher is compared to every other T3.

It is a tank that has less sustain than zerk, less agro absorption than any ravager strain, and worse area control than hedgehog or boiler. I really think you could afford to throw some crazy stuff into its kit and just see what happens.

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I love how people say Ravager is overturned.

What does that mean???

You see ravagers dying all the time. When they frag or win rounds it’s because the team was helping them and it was a team effort.

It’s the caste that it’s supposed to:

  • Frag marines
  • Frac marines
  • Delimb marines
  • IB marines

Because it is a frigging 4 meters tall xenomorph with huge blades. It’s the only caste that can reliably or at least delay the marines from being “killed” and revived in 3 milliseconds. That’s the main issue.

Boilers stop marines and kill them, but they can get revived in seconds, usually boilers are good because they deny an area and xenos can push, thus marines are left behind. Otherwise? Slap them once with defib and they are up.

Praetorians are utility, they are nothing special, but if you play them like you are supposed to, using their kits, they help the team. You don’t see a Prae doing everything alone, because that’s not what they are supposed to.

And crushers… they are supposed to be tanky. But they are slow. Speed is king in this game. The AOE slash is completely busted. But it’s never used. Why? Because if you aren’t using your crusher abilities and dipping the milisecond you go in, you die.

You cannot make them tankier because people would cry about unkillable crushers. People already complain about the ‘crusher shield’ and so on.

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Nobody does that. Literally nobody complains about crusher shield. And rav is nearly as tanky and sometimes even more tanky than crusher.

People say that in comparsion to other T3 xenos, not in a game balance sense against marines.

Again you don’t understand, read the OP. It is not a thread to complain that rav is too good and needs to be nerfed. It is a thread that rav in comparsion to other T3s leaves them far behind.


I already posted my quick bandaid experiment solution: Remove ravager’s fire immunity and give it to crusher.

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ngl charger should be the base strain, the current base is just…a warrior but with less capping/killing potential and more survivability.

Bring back Warden?

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If only charger was actually good lol

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Shaman and Boxer?

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I love how people say Ravager is overturned.

What does that mean???

It’s the only caste that can reliably or at least delay the marines from being “killed” and revived in 3 milliseconds

Rav brain on display

Maybe Shaman because why not but Boxer was Boxer any good? I miss Knight personally which was even worse :laughing:

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If fire immunity from particular rav strains were ever removed; I’d suggest desaturating the sprite towards dark grey/black instead of red. That would be very effective visual design language.

Similarly, adding fire immunity - saturate the xeno sprite with red.

Runners mess up the consistency a little, but whatever.
 


Boxer wasn’t good for most players, but it was FUN

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