There is a 50/50 chance the marines land on the other LZ. Survivor holds are usually in the area with most ‘natural’ cover (Like Rwalls) which sometimes is far away from LZs. Most survivor holds (from my experience atleast) fall around 0019-0021 round time. Marines deploy at around 0024-0025 usually. Let’s say, the marines land on the right LZ, before 0025, there are competent corpsmen around, and someone decided to check the spot in which survivors were holding. The survivors will have around one minute before going perma.
I will admit this happened alot.. around 2 years ago. Now this happens on, like, what? 3 maps? And that is with the best circumstances. Do you realize how rare that actually is? Oh, and:
Wait for how long, exactly? Not to mention the key word “Find”. They usually don’t.
basically anywhere with areas you can funnel xenos through and delay them as much as possible from getting in. LZ’s usually have these options which is why they are obviously preferred, but Shivas would be a good exception since it’s usually a noob-trap to hold near the LZ’s there.
Checkpoints on Trijent, checkpoints and areodome on Hybrisa, engi on LV, argie on shivas (although thats debatable), marshalls on Solaris, to name a few. There are plenty more, but they aren’t in common use.
If it’s so rare, why is it an issue that needs to be changed should be your point. Because changing it with no reason other than ‘well we can’ doesn’t make sense.
You’re proposing a nerf for no reason.
And why should it be survivor-specific if it was implemented? Survivors aren’t the only ones that do this, why are they specifically being targetted? Marines kill themselves to avoid capture. That shouldn’t be the same because of… why, exactly? Surely the same rationale is applicable if it’s sound.
Have you read my response? Survivors would have less than a minute left for revival.
To illustrate my point. Two tap tackles are even more so annoying for survs. Should we remove those? Queen rushing survs is also very annoying, so we should make it impossible, yes? Both of those things are rare. I am following your logic here. Or are those things okay? Tell me, beacuse judging by the way you respond, you seem awfully keen on nerfing survivors for… What, exactly?
Oh no! A single surv killed themselves and got revived. Is it really the end of the world? It happens rarely, it does not have any reasonable round impact, it’a just a single guy that got lucky. Is it annoying? Yeah. Is it as annoying as a million things xenos do? No. Survivors play a minor role in the round, they usually die/get capped. Is a few survs taking a gamble and winning, then subsequently having fun that bad?
When you call it a nerf then you imply that survs are using suicide to their advantage? Im confused here
I did read your response and I answered the question you asked there. I didnt realise if that was a rhetorical one.
Whataboutism.
You challenged my statement about survs abusing the mechanic by saying how rare is that and I challenged you back with a suggestion for them to go perma.
After all if they dont abuse suiciding and dont make holdouts near LZ they simply wont be affected by the change at all, righttttt ?
Also why are you calling that a nerf if you keep saying they dont abuse that ?
I agree in 99%. I dont belive that suicide should be considered "just a gamble” in a roleplay environment.
When you call it a nerf then you imply that survs are using suicide to their advantage? Im confused here
No, because if you applied the rationale fairly and logically it wouldn’t just be survivors affected by this change. It would be marines too. And no matter how you slice it, yes, it is a nerf. Singling out survivors for denying capture via suicide but ignoring when marines doing it is some crazy tunnel vision and I question your motives if it’s solely survivors that you’re focused on.
But I said that it’s not rare…
Then you’d be wrong. Nobody sets out with the idea of ‘i’m gonna hold near the LZ so i can shoot myself to get saved’. Shooting yourself is a remedial measure: Nobody wants to do it, it’s guaranteeing your death almost all the time, but it avoids the absolute certainty of being captured and round-removed for sure. You hold near the LZ because you’ll have better chances overall on most maps because of the very simple fact that most maps (but not all, as illustrated in another post) have excellent hold locations near them and the marines will get to you quicker, meaning xenos have to back off earlier, which means you’ll have better chances of surviving (whether or not you’re dead LOL, and the obvious fact is that you’d rather be alive because you can still perma anyway due to a variety of factors)
When you call it a nerf then you imply that survs are using suicide to their advantage? Im confused here
It depends what you consider ‘an advantage’. I don’t consider having to shoot myself and possibly perma an advantage but if I don’t want to play xeno there is literally zero reason not to even if I don’t get saved, which again, as I brought up but have received no rebuttal to: Your proposed solution doesn’t dissuade suicide still, which is the grievance of the entire post. Even if you perma’d instantly from self-damage (ignoring the fact it’d be as simple as getting someone else to shoot you, blowing up a fuel tank, or the other many ways of killing yourself either on purpose or accidentally) if you didn’t want to play xeno you still have zero incentive to not shoot yourself if you’re certain you’re going to be captured, which as posited, is the entire issue, no?
I dont belive that suicide should be considered "just a gamble” in a roleplay environment
You haven’t played very much survivor if you think it’s a roleplay conducive environment, respectfully. That only happens after you’ve been saved, if there’s a CL/CO willing to roleplay, or what have you.
I just think another solution would be better at addressing the actual posited problem.
Because when marines get capped and when survs get capped? Marines get capped on frontlines without any cades, they get warrior grabbed, or abducted, queen screeched, or just plain ol’tackle. When survs get capped? Xenos bust open every layer of surv cade onion when the last one fails, then capping starts.
This gives survs a lot of time when they are certain they are about to be capped in a couple of seconds, so they have enough time to harm themselfs and xenos can’t do shit other than what they were already doing, they can’t slash cade faster if they see surv harming themselfs, or anything. Marines on the other hand can’t react to a certain cap in this way. You get warrior grabbed, you are stunned, then if you don’t have magharn, or another gun, you can’t really do much harm to yourself other than stabbing with a bootknife that doesn’t do much damage anyway. It is all in xeno hands to prevent you from suiciding. It is a known fact that xenos don’t really get any cap if they are the side that is attacking caded positions, they mostly get caps from defending themselfs from attack.
So in short survs denying cap just depends on survs recognising that xenos are slashing last cade that keeps them away. Marine denying cap depends mostly on xeno failing skill check.
I question your motives on why issue that arises in +90% cases from survivors has to also impact marines? Oh no, survs are R-walling everything and xenos can’t do shit to them before T3s arrive, better to restrict EVERYONE from making R-walls at all.
I say NO! Surv issues and solutions to them should not impact marines when marines are not the problem. Nobody cares that John Marine after getting warrior grabbed and menaging to stand up PB’s himself with his magharn buckshot shotgun. What xenos care is Jane “Sweaty” Survivor blasting herself just as the last cadeline is about to be broken. Don’t try to protect survivor sweaty powergaming moves by inventing a rule that everything that survivor does and xenos complain has to be also nerfed in marines, despite xenos not having much issue with marines doing that.
Because when marines get capped and when survs get capped? Marines get capped on frontlines without any cades, they get warrior grabbed, or abducted, queen screeched, or just plain ol’tackle. When survs get capped? Xenos bust open every layer of surv cade onion when the last one fails, then capping starts.
Your point being? You haven’t actually challenged what I actually said despite writing this. All of these things happen to survivors too? Are you just ignoring the fact that not all survivors hold or what? Or the fact that various of these (notably queen scree, abduction, and tackling) is still possible in a hold???
This gives survs a lot of time when they are certain they are about to be capped in a couple of seconds
Another thing I never got a rebuttal to: Why does this matter? That’s the gamble you take as a xeno trying to kill or capture survivors: If your xenomorphs die and you get no captures, well, that’s just how it is. Tough shit. You don’t have to keep attacking a barricade after taking a few losses, but if you insist on trying to capture survivors to recuperate some losses you’re still taking a risk. You’re not entitled to captures and at some point it’s the teams fault for having been killed in the first place and being unable to kill or capture enough survivors before they’re entrenched.
The same goes for when you roll survivor and try to kill xenos. Sometimes you get zero kills and all of you are captured. Tough shit. It’s how the game is. Nobody is whining about trying to rework stuns even though it’s as simple as poor luck sometimes.
As szymonalex said: Xenos shouldn’t be rewarded for their mistakes, and not having castes onhand to stun survivors (sentinel, queen, etc) before they can shoot themselves isn’t the survivors problem. It’s the definition of not their problem LMAO.
It is a known fact that xenos don’t really get any cap if they are the side that is attacking caded positions, they mostly get caps from defending themselfs from attack.
Elephant in the room by the way: Xenos are not guaranteed to capture survivors and they aren’t designed with that in mind either. Whining that they shoot themselves because they’re about to be captured is hilarious when you consider this.
I question your motives on why issue that arises in +90% cases from survivors has to also impact marines? Oh no, survs are R-walling everything and xenos can’t do shit to them before T3s arrive, better to restrict EVERYONE from making R-walls at all.
How do I even begin to unpack this egregious and disingenuous strawman.
I never said all applicable cases of survivor-specific issues should be applied to marines either. You’re just ignoring the fact that I made a specific argument of why in this case if it was the case it should be applicable to marines too. It’s literally in the first sentence of my paragraph that I was talking about the specific change posited. Don’t put words in my mouth, thank you.
In this specific case, as you’ve so conveniently ignored, everything that is applicable to survivors (suiciding when you think you’re about to be captured) is nearly 1 to 1 applicable to marines. This is why I made the point in the first place, silly.
You’ve still failed to rebutt the idea that the proposed solution doesn’t actually solve the issue. Survivors will still shoot themselves to avoid capture with any of these implemented. None of these deter this behaviour still.
I say NO! Surv issues and solutions to them should not impact marines when marines are not the problem.
Already addressed this above. (See: 1.)
Nobody cares that John Marine after getting warrior grabbed and menaging to stand up PB’s himself with his magharn buckshot shotgun. What xenos care is Jane “Sweaty” Survivor blasting herself just as the last cadeline is about to be broken
The functional difference is minimal: You don’t get a cap either way. Why does the ‘how’ matter. Because the survivor player gets to do it easier? Newsflash: This is applicable to marines still too! Marines cade and when they’re broken they shoot themselves (if the situation calls for it), and survivors also get captured while on the frontline and when roaming?
Don’t try to protect survivor sweaty powergaming moves by inventing a rule that everything that survivor does and xenos complain has to be also nerfed in marines, despite xenos not having much issue with marines doing that.
Ignoring the snide insult, trying to play the game optimally isn’t powergaming. Just because you disagree doesn’t make it untrue. Why would someone pick the role that doesn’t let you roleplay unless you have a death wish not try to play to the very best of your ability? And if it is powergaming, why is playing the game optimally as you can a bad thing?
The day that I’m punished for trying my absolute best is the day the game stops being worth playing.
I think we should remove survivors, they are rude and kill xenos, thats kinda mean, id call it griefing even, isnt there a rule for that?
Can we ban all the survivors?
(I agree with all of your points, you are so wise ty for sharing this, god loves you. )
Yup, I am ignoring that because it is completly 100% fine to suicide as a surv that isn’t holding behind cades, the situation is the same as with marines, it is xeno job to stop you from suiciding and if surv isn’t behind cades, then xenos have the capability to actually try to stop him instead of just flouride staring in front of cades.
What survs are supposed to be? A toy for xenos to do something before marines drop, or what? Please, answer me this question: What is the survivors role in CM?
I don’t have a problem with just survs suiciding at all, or with few xenos dying and no surv caps. What I have an issue with is survs suiciding behind cades where xenos can’t do anything to stop that. No, sentinel won’t stop you from suiciding if you are behind cades. And did you seriously brought up Queen comming up to surv crib to neuro and screech? Ah, like survs haven’t complained for temp mature queens doing exactly that XD.
I didn’t make that argument. As mentioned previously, only suiciding behind cades is a gameplay issue. You are responding to me, not to the other guys who complained that survs suicide at all. Every single surv suicide that isn’t inside their cade onion when xenos are just one layer outside is fine.
It is not a strawman, because I didn’t say you made an argument about R-walls, I just gave an example of a simillar line of thinking to also impact marines when the issue is impacting mostly survs.
Neither did I. Notice in my post:
“ISSUE”, not “ISSUES”. Singular, not plural. This specific issue of survivors suiciding. What are your motives behind applying surv suicide prevention to marines, when marines suiciding isn’t an issue that people have a problem with, but they do about survs doing that?
Please, kind sir, quote me where I wrote that you said that all applicable cases of survivor-specific issues should be applied to marines either. Don’t ignore that.
Marines don’t build survivor holds, the only place that has defence layers is FoB which is in +99% cases also LZ, so marines evac instead of suiciding, or they miss evac and they run to another LZ to be picked. Even if they suicide in that case, all that xeno effort weren’t in vain, they forced evac, they won the game because they broke into marine cades, instead of being cock-blocked like they are when they break into surv hold.
Because I am not arguing for, or against them. I have a problem with you wanting to include marines in potential survivor nerf/fix. I only quoted one part of your post that I was interested in, I’m not arguing for, or against any proposed surv change, only against marines being included also despite not being a part of the problem, or being very, very, very minor, that doesn’t warrant that.
If you don’t get a cap on marine(or surv outside cades roaming), it is usually your fault as a xeno. If you don’t get a cap on a survivor inside his hold when you are about to break the last line, you couldn’t do anything to stop that surv from suiciding. That is the difference.
Ah yes, playing the game as optimally as it is possible isn’t playing the game as optimally as it is possible, seems logical.
Sir, you are playing SS13, a ROLE-PLAYING game. CM is advertised as “MEDIUM ROLE-PLAYING SERVER”. The other team is not full of NPCs that don’t care, the other team is full of regular players, humans like you are. They deserve to have some fun. I am not forcing you to roleplay, it is up to you, but I would like if you let others also have some fun too.
survivors dont always hold, they can roam (just like marines)
survivors can, infact, get woygrabbed
marines can, infact, use cades
both of those things apply to both marines and survivors
there is 2 maps in which survs rwalling themselves is an issue (even though there is a million ways xenos can prevent that)
when did removing rwalls come up in this thread again? can you remind me?
how is killing yourself in any way powergaming, you are essentially round removing yourself
literally when did anyone say that
xenos do not flouride stare infront of cades, the majority of the time they try to break them
survivor is a challange role, its meant to be a fun alternative to marine offering new challanges and high-octane gameplay, and something for xenos to fight IF THEY WANT incase they get bored
xenos can do multiple things to stop survs from suiciding behind cades (like Kwoney said) and yes, people will complain about stuff they find unfun (interestingly marine players, surv players, and xeno players, have all been found to complain about things)
the last time ive seen survs kill themselves before xenos are in the hold was around 1 year ago
no comment
as i stated above, this is a non issue, this applies to 2 maps, and it does not happen every round
here
while you did not explicitly state it it is heavily implied
they didnt win the game they still have hijack to go through, and many xenos notoriously complain about being cockblocked by hijack
the keys word here are “Nerf” and “Fix”, nothing here needs nerfing or fixing
again, this has been debunked by Kwoney
half of the marine team picks “meta loadouts” which fall under powergaming, does that prevent xenos from having fun? again, you did nothing to debunk anything that has been said
i have seen you on the forums for a pretty long time, yet ive seen you ingame once, and the only thing you do on forums is stink it up with word vomit that has no substance whatsoever, and never debunk a point someone makes
you never bring anything into the conversation except “THIS WILL IMPACT MUH MARINE MAINS!!!” you didnt even adress the point the post is about or why something should/shouldnt be done about it, and the funniest part is that you dont even play the game
sorry if im mean but i think you shouldnt speak about balance matters if you play once in 3 months
Yup, I am ignoring that because it is completly 100% fine to suicide as a surv that isn’t holding behind cades, the situation is the same as with marines, it is xeno job to stop you from suiciding and if surv isn’t behind cades, then xenos have the capability to actually try to stop him instead of just flouride staring in front of cades.
So the entire issue is because of barricades? Really? Of all things?
What survs are supposed to be? A toy for xenos to do something before marines drop, or what? Please, answer me this question: What is the survivors role in CM?
No, they’re players like xenos are. They are there into interact with eachother, if you posit the idea that ‘survs are just toys for xenos’ then you’re ignoring your own point of:
The other team is not full of NPCs that don’t care, the other team is full of regular players, humans like you are.
They’re allowed to try their best to win and do well, EVERYONE is, which brings me to:
Sir, you are playing SS13, a ROLE-PLAYING game. CM is advertised as “MEDIUM ROLE-PLAYING SERVER”. The other team is not full of NPCs that don’t care, the other team is full of regular players, humans like you are. They deserve to have some fun. I am not forcing you to roleplay, it is up to you, but I would like if you let others also have some fun too.
If the PvP aspect of the game wasn’t also important then balance wouldn’t be an issue. You’re acting like I’m infringing upon ‘fun’ by doing what I find fun, which is engaging with the PvP aspects of the game primarily. It’s very hypocritical. I’m not ‘not letting others have fun’ by doing this. It’s annoying, but being captured is annoying, so many other things are *annoying*, why does it matter in this specific case?
Ah yes, playing the game as optimally as it is possible isn’t playing the game as optimally as it is possible, seems logical.
If you’re sticking with this definition (which I might add is up for contention as I’ve heard many different definitions of the word ‘powergaming’ that people argue for when they insinuate someone is doing it) then the obvious fact is in your face: It explicitly states ‘when done to the exclusion of all other considerations’. NONE of these do this. These are within the rules, are arguably roleplay friendly (survivors wouldn’t let xenomorphs capture them knowing what awaits) AND it’s arguably in the spirit of the role. All of which are considerations that would prohibit it from being in-line with this definition.
Marines don’t build survivor holds, the only place that has defence layers is FoB which is in +99% cases also LZ, so marines evac instead of suiciding, or they miss evac and they run to another LZ to be picked. Even if they suicide in that case, all that xeno effort weren’t in vain, they forced evac, they won the game because they broke into marine cades, instead of being cock-blocked like they are when they break into surv hold.
You’re acknowledging that even if they marines suicide in the event of failed evacuation that it’s still worth something. Why isn’t this applicable to survivors too? They’re dead and in most cases permanently so. You can even gib them if you want if the queen comes to the hold.
like survs haven’t complained for temp mature queens doing exactly that XD.
It’s still allowed. Or at the very least queens can come to holds, so I don’t know why complaining changes the fact it’s possible.
Neither did I. Notice in my post:
Oh no, survs are R-walling everything and xenos can’t do shit to them before T3s arrive, better to restrict EVERYONE from making R-walls at all.
This is a seperate issue you brought up immediately following this following the same argument. You quite literally did.
Are you just ignoring the fact that not all survivors hold or what? Or the fact that various of these (notably queen scree, abduction, and tackling) is still possible in a hold???
This is a seperate issue you brought up immediately following this following the same argument. You quite literally did.