Surv scuicide, why its annoying and how to fix it.

[BOBAMAx (XxXG4m3r3l1texXx)]

ban cabal and the horror will come to an end

[Adamix147 (Ater Gorn / FOX)]

@kwoney

I question your motives if it’s solely survivors that you’re focused on.

This thread is literally called “Surv scuicide, why its annoying and how to fix it.”. I am focusing on what was put up for discussion.

Really? I now question your motives if it’s solely humans that you’re focused on. Let’s talk about preds suicide too ?

@kwoney

Then you’d be wrong. Nobody sets out with the idea of ‘i’m gonna hold near the LZ so i can shoot myself to get saved’. Shooting yourself is a remedial measure: Nobody wants to do it, it’s guaranteeing your death almost all the time, but it avoids the absolute certainty of being captured and round-removed for sure. You hold near the LZ because you’ll have better chances overall on most maps because of the very simple fact that most maps (but not all, as illustrated in another post) have excellent hold locations near them and the marines will get to you quicker, meaning xenos have to back off earlier, which means you’ll have better chances of surviving (whether or not you’re dead LOL, and the obvious fact is that you’d rather be alive because you can still perma anyway due to a variety of factors)

@kwoney

It depends what you consider ‘an advantage’. I don’t consider having to shoot myself and possibly perma an advantage but if I don’t want to play xeno there is literally zero reason not to even if I don’t get saved, which again, as I brought up but have received no rebuttal to: Your proposed solution doesn’t dissuade suicide still, which is the grievance of the entire post. Even if you perma’d instantly from self-damage (ignoring the fact it’d be as simple as getting someone else to shoot you, blowing up a fuel tank, or the other many ways of killing yourself either on purpose or accidentally) if you didn’t want to play xeno you still have zero incentive to not shoot yourself if you’re certain you’re going to be captured, which as posited, is the entire issue, no?

I honestly really like that part of your response. A lot of facts

@kwoney

You haven’t played very much survivor if you think it’s a roleplay conducive environment, respectfully. That only happens after you’ve been saved, if there’s a CL/CO willing to roleplay, or what have you.

I cant agree with that. Sounds like an excuse for using netspeak in-character because it’s quicker to say “cade rn”, “brb“ or “shckd door“.

[kwoney (Chad Creatone)]

This thread is literally called “Surv scuicide, why its annoying and how to fix it.”. I am focusing on what was put up for discussion.

That’s true. But my point was that the 3rd solutions rationale almost 1 to 1 applied to marine behaviours too and when I suggested it would only be logical that it was applied to them too I got pushback, so that’s why I brought it up.

I cant agree with that. Sounds like an excuse for using netspeak in-character because it’s quicker to say “cade rn”, “brb“ or “shckd door“.

This is just an unfortunate side-effect of both being strapped for time (namely to get to a hold, weapons, whatever) but I meant generally. I do agree with you that netspeak ic is obviously not okay.

My point was that roleplaying as survivor when you could be preparing to hold is usually counterintuitive to roleplay anyway, as you’ll want to roleplay for more than just ten minutes, so you’ll want to survive, ergo you’ll do as much as you can TO survive. I really wish there was more survivor roleplay that was possible while you’re still actually doing the ‘surviving’, but with how the role is made it just isn’t if you want to play for long.

I honestly really like that part of your response. A lot of facts

I should mention I don’t entirely disagree with your rationale (at least some of it) either, I’m just focusing on what I disagree with primarily, so I apologize if I come across as standoffish.

[Cabal]

@Pucufix

survivors dont always hold, they can roam (just like marines)

Did I claimed otherwise?

@Pucufix

survivors can, infact, get woygrabbed

marines can, infact, use cades

Did I claimed otherwise? Yeah, I know, probably “heavily implied”.

@Pucufix

both of those things apply to both marines and survivors

It is only an issue when survs do it.

@Pucufix

there is 2 maps in which survs rwalling themselves is an issue (even though there is a million ways xenos can prevent that)

when did removing rwalls come up in this thread again? can you remind me?

I question your ability to read and understand what you have read. Sentence about R-walling is an example of simillar logic applied to an issue of survivors also being forced upon marines, while marines doing that is not a problem. Marines suiciding is not a problem, survs suiciding (behind cades) is a problem, marines R-walling is not a problem, survivors R-walling (before T3s roll out) can be a problem.

@Pucufix

how is killing yourself in any way powergaming, you are essentially round removing yourself

But you are denying the cap and also preventing your corpse from being moved from that spot. Which is fine as long as xenos can do something about it (survs roaming). Because this is the most optimal play for a surv, set a holdout next to LZ that marines will most likely use, fight xenos as long as you can (atleast till 0:20), kill yourself to prevent being moved from that holdout in case it gets broken into, wait as immovable corpse for xenos to flee from marines and chad medics to arrive to revive you (before 5 minutes mark, sometimes even longer if it is PFC doing some CPRs). There is no better play for a survivor short of just being alive so long marines come anyway.

Xenos have issue with that and I think there is something not right in that particular situation, where xenos are powerless to stop it. Players voiced their opinion and now surv mains try to employ every tactic under the sun to upkeep the status quo, since simply claiming “everything is fine” doesn’t work. One of those tactics is trying to drag marines into any proposed solution.

@Pucufix

literally when did anyone say that

“It was heavily implied”

@Pucufix

xenos do not flouride stare infront of cades, the majority of the time they try to break them

They flouride stare at a survivor killing themselfs when cade is just few slashes from breaking, while being powerless to stop said surv from doing that. Short of a Queen deoving and going to that spot to screech, which is simply a silly argument to make, sentinel being present is slightly less so cough cough endurance cough cough.

@Pucufix

xenos can do multiple things to stop survs from suiciding behind cades (like Kwoney said)

He said sentinel and Queen. Already explained why it is silly.

@Pucufix

while you did not explicitly state it it is heavily implied

So I didn’t say that you (or anyone) said that all applicable cases of survivor-specific issues should be applied to marines either. You only think I did it, because it “heavily implies” something even though it literally doesn’t. There is singular “issue” not a plural “issues”. If I didn’t say that outright, don’t assume stuff. Talking about strawmanning, ironic.

@Pucufix

they didnt win the game they still have hijack to go through, and many xenos notoriously complain about being cockblocked by hijack

They did win. If marines evac and xenos press the funny hijack button, it is already xeno minor even if they get wiped out shipside. I also complain about hijack, am I a xenomain, or still dirty marinemain?

@Pucufix

the keys word here are “Nerf” and “Fix”, nothing here needs nerfing or fixing

Arguably survivors suiciding behind cades need that. Not marines, though.

@Pucufix

again, this has been debunked by Kwoney

Debunked my cybernetic bottom.

@Pucufix

half of the marine team picks “meta loadouts” which fall under powergaming, does that prevent xenos from having fun? again, you did nothing to debunk anything that has been said

It doesn’t prevent xenos from having fun, because they get to interact and counteract that, unlike survs suiciding behind cades.

@Pucufix

i have seen you on the forums for a pretty long time, yet ive seen you ingame once, and the only thing you do on forums is stink it up with word vomit that has no substance whatsoever, and never debunk a point someone makes

I wasn’t writing to you. Wasn’t that heavily implied that I was responding with that quote solely to kooarbiter? You have seen me ingame once most likely because I mostly play on weekends during european daylight hours. Recently very regularly.

@Pucufix

you never bring anything into the conversation except “THIS WILL IMPACT MUH MARINE MAINS!!!” you didnt even adress the point the post is about or why something should/shouldnt be done about it, and the funniest part is that you dont even play the game

While my brain marinemaining can’t be denied, I do play the game and you lie just because you haven’t seen me much.

@kwoney

So the entire issue is because of barricades? Really? Of all things?

The whole thread is not about that for sure, just read it. If survs suicide, I have only issue with if they do it behind cades, just as xenos are about to break into, other than that it is 100% fine as stated previously.

@kwoney

No, they’re players like xenos are. They are there into interact with eachother, if you posit the idea that ‘survs are just toys for xenos’ then you’re ignoring your own point of:

But if you posit the idea that xenos are just toys for survs and they can do every dirty and unfun trick just because it is the most optimal thing and stuff like that, you are no better

@kwoney

You’re acting like I’m infringing upon ‘fun’ by doing what I find fun, which is engaging with the PvP aspects of the game primarily.

Glad that you admit that you have stakes in this thread, defending survivors from survivor perspective. I’m a marinemain, you are a survmain.

@kwoney

If you’re sticking with this definition (which I might add is up for contention as I’ve heard many different definitions of the word ‘powergaming’ that people argue for when they insinuate someone is doing it) then the obvious fact is in your face: It explicitly states ‘when done to the exclusion of all other considerations’. NONE of these do this.

So when do you stop doing something potentialy allowed by server rules that is not 100% optimal? I can answer that for you: “Never”.

@kwoney

You’re acknowledging that even if they marines suicide in the event of failed evacuation that it’s still worth something. Why isn’t this applicable to survivors too? They’re dead and in most cases permanently so. You can even gib them if you want if the queen comes to the hold.

Yes, even if marines suicide in the event of failed evacuation then they achieve something, which is denying cap. They have 0 chances to be revived though, unlike survs in metahold spots.

@kwoney

Why isn’t this applicable to survivors too? They’re dead and in most cases permanently so. You can even gib them if you want if the queen comes to the hold.

Not in most cases, no. Because there is still a big chance for marines to arrive in this 5 minute window to revive a surv. No marine will come back from total evac to revive marine who PBed himself in LZ full of xenos, or outside of it even. If queen comes off-ovi just to gib one surv corpse, then that queen deserves to be killed by marines in first few minutes of deployment.

@kwoney

It’s still allowed. Or at the very least queens can come to holds, so I don’t know why complaining changes the fact it’s possible.

It is allowed, but was heavily restricted due to surv complaints that queen abuse the system and jump out of tunnels. Queens played as optimal as possible, roleplay friendly and all of that, but survivor tears still filled all containers in the colony.

@kwoney

This is a seperate issue you brought up immediately following this following the same argument. You quite literally did.

This isn’t an issue I brought up as anything but an example of a fault in logic of extending survivor fixes/nerfs to marines. If R-walling is an issue, it can be only an issue when survivors do it, because when marines come to the planet, T3s who can break those walls are already possible to evolve into.

---

But we might start again, fresh, without word vomit and quotes of a quotes of some quote, so time for a kind of experimental forum framework: Condensation and wipe of previous statements. Lets assume I didn’t write anything, here are my main points as short as possible:

1. Survivors suiciding behind cades seems to be an issue, otherwise it is completly 100% fine
2. If any fix/nerf/buff were to come adress that, it shouldn’t impact marines.

Argue with that.

[kwoney (Chad Creatone)]

But if you posit the idea that xenos are just toys for survs and they can do every dirty and unfun trick just because it is the most optimal thing and stuff like that, you are no better

I reject your premise outright. This is a video-game, nobody is anyone elses ‘toy’, we’re all here to play with eachother.

Glad that you admit that you have stakes in this thread, defending survivors from survivor perspective. I’m a marinemain, you are a survmain.

I mostly play marine nowadays, a little bit of surv, and I’m getting into xeno, my days of solely playing survivor are far behind me: Either way it’s irrelevant. I’m not arguing against this because I’m a ‘survmain’, i’m arguing against it because I think it’s stupid. The two are largely unrelated, as I don’t even hold as survivor, I roam.

So when do you stop doing something potentialy allowed by server rules that is not 100% optimal? I can answer that for you: “Never”.

You’re going to have to rephrase this because I don’t understand.

Yes, even if marines suicide in the event of failed evacuation then they achieve something, which is denying cap. They have 0 chances to be revived though, unlike survs in metahold spots.

Already addressed this waaay up in the thread. Nobody holds with the intention of suiciding, at least not common enough to make this anything more than an annoying but harmless issue.

Not in most cases, no. Because there is still a big chance for marines to arrive in this 5 minute window to revive a surv. No marine will come back from total evac to revive marine who PBed himself in LZ full of xenos, or outside of it even. If queen comes off-ovi just to gib one surv corpse, then that queen deserves to be killed by marines in first few minutes of deployment.

You’ve hyperfocused onto one specific scenario when many others are possible and not only possible but more common. Most of the time when survivors suicide, they stay dead. It’s just a fact.

It is allowed, but was heavily restricted due to surv complaints that queen abuse the system and jump out of tunnels. Queens played as optimal as possible, roleplay friendly and all of that, but survivor tears still filled all containers in the colony.

The implication that gaming a hidden timer is ‘roleplay friendly’ is hilarious but alright. Also it still is allowed and you’ve mixed the past and present tenses here. To be clear: It is still allowed, queens can and do come to holds to ensure capture, and it oftens works even when barricades are present.

This isn’t an issue I brought up as anything but an example of a fault in logic of extending survivor fixes/nerfs to marines. If R-walling is an issue, it can be only an issue when survivors do it, because when marines come to the planet, T3s who can break those walls are already possible to evolve into.

Neither did I. Notice in my post:

You denied bringing it up at all. Don’t change your goalpost. Again, I also specifically pointed out this specific changes logic would be applicable to marines too as barricades, suicide, and revive timers are all things survivors share in common with marines, and even the exact specifics of this rationale can easily be 1-1 seen in a round. I’ve even personally done so myself.

Lets assume I didn’t write anything

Okay. We’ll proceed following your two next points:

1. Survivors suiciding behind cades seems to be an issue, otherwise it is completly 100% fine
2. If any fix/nerf/buff were to come adress that, it shouldn’t impact marines.

1: You cannot gloss over the fact it’s up for contention whether it even is an issue as a premise. And the fact of the matter is, short of a rule (which would be stupid, imagine not being allowed to shoot yourself to avoid being captured by a xenomorph) this is largely an unfixable issue, unless anyone has any other ideas.

2: That entirely depends on what is being changed. I only argued that it would make sense to apply it to marines too, as I have elaborated on. For the last time, you’re arguing with a strawman here. I’m not saying ALL survivor changes could and SHOULD be applied to marines, you’re asking me to argue against a point I never even disagreed with.

[RainbowStalin]

@kwoney

And the fact of the matter is, short of a rule (which would be stupid, imagine not being allowed to shoot yourself to avoid being captured by a xenomorph) this is largely an unfixable issue, unless anyone has any other ideas

@RainbowStalin

Make it cost something other than ammo, like either reducing revive timelimit or similar.

Already WAY ahead of you.

[kwoney (Chad Creatone)]

I saw this.

It does not address the problem.

Even if you perma’d instantly from self-damage (ignoring the fact it’d be as simple as getting someone else to shoot you, blowing up a fuel tank, or the other many ways of killing yourself either on purpose or accidentally) if you didn’t want to play xeno you still have zero incentive to not shoot yourself if you’re certain you’re going to be captured.

The grievance is that there is no counterplay and no way to stop it. Punishing it (anymore than shooting yourself and in all likelihood permaing anyway is punishing enough) does not actually solve the problem, for the reasons I have quoted. All it really does is make the already present ‘annoyance’ of survivors surviving due to suicide rarer, which as I understand it isn’t the problem. The lack of counterplay is, reading the start of the thread.

I wouldn’t really care that much if this was changed to be the case because it ultimately doesn’t change a thing but it fails to address the problem stated, which is the entire point of the thread.

So what, you perma a minute or two earlier? 9/10 times you perma anyway, it’s a slight nerf. Doesn’t address the actual problem imo.

And if we’re arguing it should just be present to punish suicide: Why isn’t this applicable to every instance of suicide, not just behind a cade, as a survivor? Because if if it’s a punitive measure, purely punishing survivors for doing it doesn’t make sense. Marines shoot themselves to avoid capture and extend-revive timers too. If the argument is that suicide as an option to avoid capture should have drawbacks regardless of where or how, then it shouldn’t be survivor specific. These behaviours are not unique to survivors, even moreso than my comparison with Cabal. Much moreso, infact.

All of this is ignoring the fact that as others have said, it may not even be an issue, as there are arguably counterplay options already, but I’ve tried to be as generous as I can and just assume the complaint is correct to attempt to get to the heart of the solution. The premise of the entire argument has already been challenged which I believe for this to be meaningfully proven to be needed one would have to address it.

I’d actually say we’ve went in a circle here, not ahead at all. I don’t think this would change anything meaningfully enough to even warrant implementation, and if implemented, this very complaint would still arise. And all that would have meaningfully happened is a survivor nerf that didn’t address the problem.

That being said though:

Penalizing suicide with a reduced timer (for everyone) is a change I don’t think would be terrible… I just don’t think it solves this issue.

[Cabal]

@kwoney

For the last time, you’re arguing with a strawman here. I’m not saying ALL survivor changes could and SHOULD be applied to marines, you’re asking me to argue against a point I never even disagreed with.

And you deduced that all from:

@Cabal

If any fix/nerf/buff were to come adress that, it shouldn’t impact marines.

Does that sentence heavily implies that you said all survivor changes could and should be applied to marines?

No, I’m not saying you do, for the last time, I am not saying you do that, you are not implying that all survivor changes could and/or should be applied to marines. You did say that it would make sense to apply to marines too and I disagree, that was the main topic of my first response to you in this thread.

You are throwing this “strawman” out all the time, while it is you who constructed one.

@kwoney

You cannot gloss over the fact it’s up for contention whether it even is an issue as a premise.

I think it is, some players in this very thread also do, some even think other forms of surv suicide are the issue. I think it is an issue (if survs do it behind cades), otherwise I don’t think it is an issue. It is not up to just me to decide if that is an issue, or not, but if it is decided to be an issue, I raise concern that tackling it shouldn’t impact marines. Easy to understand?

I fail to see the supposed “counterplay” to survs suiciding behind cades. Sentinel isn’t one and Queen is too important to show up into surv hold, likely in about 0:20, just as marines are about to first drop.

@kwoney

And the fact of the matter is, short of a rule (which would be stupid, imagine not being allowed to shoot yourself to avoid being captured by a xenomorph) this is largely an unfixable issue, unless anyone has any other ideas.

Simply make survivor perma as soon as they die, but extend their crit health death from -100% to (for example) -300%. Which would be a buff to survivors actually, because how often it happens that one survivor revives other? With extended crit health death any surv could just give his friend healing drugs and use brute/burn packs to help them get up, while it would also make capping survivors slightly easier too.

Maybe tinker with oxy damage taken from being dragged by a xeno for survivors. Then survs couldn’t kill themselfs so easly behind cades, there would always be one guy who nobody else can shoot, also there is no chance to circumvent xenos and wait for marine rescue. The problem is it would impact other siutations where survs suicide, but are fine in my opinion. You give some, you lose some.

Alternatively, let xenos drag survivor corpses, period.

It is true that this doesn’t solve the lack of counterplay from xenos against survs suiciding behind cades, but nothing will. Cades literally are designed to prevent xenos from interacting with anyone on the other side. But if it can’t be achieved mechanicaly, does it mean we have to live with it? I do not think that.

@kwoney

All of this is ignoring the fact that as others have said, it may not even be an issue, as there are arguably counterplay options already

Sentinel and Queen are not a counterplay to survs suiciding behind cades. Especially Queen, saying Queen is a counterplay to survs suiciding behind cades is like saying SADAR spec is a counterplay to lesser drones.

@kwoney

Penalizing suicide with a reduced timer (for everyone) is a change I don’t think would be terrible… I just don’t think it solves this issue.

If it doesn’t solve the issue, but makes it a tiny bit more bearable, I think it is worth trying, there is nothing to lose in the end.

[kwoney (Chad Creatone)]

And you deduced that all from:

If any fix/nerf/buff were to come adress that, it shouldn’t impact marines.

You did say that it would make sense to apply to marines too and I disagree

Okay. Why.

I’ve made my rationale very clear: If it’s something as universally the same as core mechanics like revival timers, then targetting survivors solely with it is not fair and doesn’t actually fix the problem. I’m not even opposed to the revival timers idea: You already know this.

The idea that ‘well it’s a survivor thing why does it have to impact marines’ isn’t valid because marines do these things too. If you’re not willing to acknowledge this basic fact then there’s no reason for me to try and explain it further to you.

Simply make survivor perma as soon as they die, but extend their crit health death from -100% to (for example) -300%. Which would be a buff to survivors actually, because how often it happens that one survivor revives other? With extended crit health death any surv could just give his friend healing drugs and use brute/burn packs to help them get up, while it would also make capping survivors slightly easier too.

Another non-starter. A survivor ‘buff’ (even as one as much of a monkeys paw as this) is unnecessary and making capping easier still doesn’t solve the issue because you can perma yourself via suicide from behind a cade. You even said that suicide itself wasn’t the issue but your proposing a nonsensical ‘buff’ (a nerf in disguise) to address it when you said your position was only applicable to when survivors were behind cades. Terrible, TERRIBLE solution.

A disingenuous attempt at calling something a buff when it’s actually a nerf (again that doesn’t even solve the issue!) is something normally clowned on but I never thought I’d see it for real.

Simply make survivor perma as soon as they die

I’ve already explained why this doesn’t solve the problem. I’m not repeating it for the 5th time without a rebuttal. This is even worse, because it punishes you even when you’re not partaking in the strategy it was designed to nerf.

You are throwing this “strawman” out all the time, while it is you who constructed one.

You, who have brought up seperate issues repeatedly, are telling me that it’s a strawman I’ve constructed of you because I’m quoting what you’ve said and you’re only saying they are ‘examples’ yet have stated their relevance past that? Wow.

I think it is, some players in this very thread also do, some even think other forms of surv suicide are the issue. I think it is an issue (if survs do it behind cades), otherwise I don’t think it is an issue. It is not up to just me to decide if that is an issue, or not, but if it is decided to be an issue, I raise concern that tackling it shouldn’t impact marines. Easy to understand?

This is what ‘up for contention’ means. You’re asking me if it’s easy to understand when you’ve only just now understood it. Your concern alone doesn’t debunk the why, pal.

Alternatively, let xenos drag survivor corpses, period.

Non-starter. Nonsensical. No explanation offered, no pre-existing relevance to the argument: Meaningless.

It is true that this doesn’t solve the lack of counterplay from xenos against survs suiciding behind cades, but nothing will.

This was something I made a point, I don’t know why you feel the need to repeat it.

Sentinel and Queen are not a counterplay to survs suiciding behind cades. Especially Queen, saying Queen is a counterplay to survs suiciding behind cades is like saying SADAR spec is a counterplay to lesser drones.

As I’ve stated, I’ve ran with the assumption that this is the case but you’d need to argue this with the people that have claimed otherwise to prove it is true.

If it doesn’t solve the issue, but makes it a tiny bit more bearable, I think it is worth trying, there is nothing to lose in the end.

It doesn’t solve the issue. People will still shoot themselves from behind cades. Just because it makes impacts the survivor player more doesn’t actually fundamentally solve the issue. You’re pushing for a nerf that doesn’t actually solve the issue.

Sentinel and Queen are not a counterplay to survs suiciding behind cades. Especially Queen, saying Queen is a counterplay to survs suiciding behind cades is like saying SADAR spec is a counterplay to lesser drones.

Explain why. Queen has neuro, scree, things that can stun you from behind barricades. And even if this wasn’t case, again, your solutions do not make it any easier!

Burrower can quite literally circumvent cades altogether at times,

Sentinel can hit you from behind a barricade depending on its distance (and it’s required to get close to the cade to defend it for any meaningful amount of time, if you just suicided as soon as a sentinel showed up you’d perma 100% of the time, the same goes for queen)

All of these are ways I have personally managed to capture survivors that I assumed would have attempted suicide had they realized I was trying to cap and not kill them.

All of these are ways I have been captured when I otherwise would have shot myself to escape capture (not with the intention to be revived though, since that’s never a guarantee and hoping for it is stupid)

We’re going in circles. All of your solutions don’t prevent suicide from behind barricades, they just make it more inconvenient to do, which will not stop it, which is the entire point of the thread, and punishes those who don’t engage in the behaviour that is being nerfed.

I think we’re just going to continue to go in circles so I’m going to step out of the discussion unless something new comes up. I’ve made my thoughts clear enough for anyone that wants to read them. I disagree with your offered solutions, I have stated why, that’s all I can really do.

No hard feelings.

[Pucufix (caden 'inept' thomas)]

@Cabal

Did I claimed otherwise?

no, but you purposefully ommitted that fact so your argument sounds better

@Cabal

Did I claimed otherwise? Yeah, I know, probably “heavily implied”.

yes

@Cabal

Because when marines get capped and when survs get capped? Marines get capped on frontlines without any cades, they get warrior grabbed, or abducted, queen screeched, or just plain ol’tackle. When survs get capped? Xenos bust open every layer of surv cade onion when the last one fails, then capping starts.

@Cabal

When survs get capped?

you presented it like survs are always holding to make your point sound better (again)

@Cabal

It is only an issue when survs do it.

This is the only time I will actually put effort into this. Beacuse this argument is just straight up dogshit. Why would it be an issue if only survivors do it? Infact, why is it an issue at all? It quite literally does not impact xenos at all. Survivors die majority of the time no matter how you spin it. People get annoyed about things that they find unfun, and that’s okay. It’s a part of games as a whole fuck sake. There is a million ways to avoid survs making a hold in the first place, then to stun and cap them. If xenos failed to do that, then they made a mistake. should mistakes be rewarded, or punished? Even if xenos don’t cap survs, they have 4-6 monkeys to cap instead.

@Cabal

I question your ability to read and understand what you have read. Sentence about R-walling is an example of simillar logic applied to an issue of survivors also being forced upon marines, while marines doing that is not a problem. Marines suiciding is not a problem, survs suiciding (behind cades) is a problem, marines R-walling is not a problem, survivors R-walling (before T3s roll out) can be a problem.

i question your ability to make a proper argument

@Cabal

Sentence about R-walling is an example of simillar logic applied to an issue of survivors also being forced upon marines, while marines doing that is not a problem.

nobody is forcing anything upon anyone. besides, xenos notoriously complain about marines Rwalling too, you cant just ignore that…

It sounds like you are trying to omit that to make your argument sound better. Curious…

@Cabal

But you are denying the cap and also preventing your corpse from being moved from that spot. Which is fine as long as xenos can do something about it (survs roaming). Because this is the most optimal play for a surv, set a holdout next to LZ that marines will most likely use, fight xenos as long as you can (atleast till 0:20), kill yourself to prevent being moved from that holdout in case it gets broken into, wait as immovable corpse for xenos to flee from marines and chad medics to arrive to revive you (before 5 minutes mark, sometimes even longer if it is PFC doing some CPRs). There is no better play for a survivor short of just being alive so long marines come anyway.

three things

marines usually deploy long after survivors would have permad (which you would know if you played the game)

killing yourself is solely to deny a cap, besides why would a survivor willingly shoot themselves before marines arrive? survs shoot themselves as they are getting tackled, in order to deny a cap. survs shooting themselves before xenos are even in the hold is extremely rare (which you would have known if you even played the game)

yes, survivors are quite literally meant to survive until marines come??? is this new to you?

@Cabal

Xenos have issue with that and I think there is something not right in that particular situation, where xenos are powerless to stop it. Players voiced their opinion and now surv mains try to employ every tactic under the sun to upkeep the status quo, since simply claiming “everything is fine” doesn’t work. One of those tactics is trying to drag marines into any proposed solution.

is there a thing xenos dont have an issue with? only the loud minority has problems with stuff like this anyways

@Cabal

“It was heavily implied”

when? please point it out

you cant just repeat it, you know?

@Cabal

They flouride stare at a survivor killing themselfs when cade is just few slashes from breaking, while being powerless to stop said surv from doing that. Short of a Queen deoving and going to that spot to screech, which is simply a silly argument to make, sentinel being present is slightly less so cough cough endurance cough cough.

again, survivors try to keep themselves alive as long as possible, they dont shoot themselves in the cades. your entire argument is based on that and its not even true :b

@Cabal

He said sentinel and Queen. Already explained why it is silly.

burrower, defender, sent, spitter, prae, queen

burrower can burrow under and cause chaos (duh?)

defender can fortify and break cades (one of the biggest factors of surv holds falling)

sentinel can stun survs

spitter can paincrit survs and they can do fuckall about it

prae can do the same as spitter

queen can press one button and win

@Cabal

So I didn’t say that you (or anyone) said that all applicable cases of survivor-specific issues should be applied to marines either. You only think I did it, because it “heavily implies” something even though it literally doesn’t. There is singular “issue” not a plural “issues”. If I didn’t say that outright, don’t assume stuff. Talking about strawmanning, ironic.

yes, you purposefully implied it

@Cabal

If I didn’t say that outright, don’t assume stuff.

you dont play the game, i dont think you should assume stuff about it, yes?

@Cabal

They did win. If marines evac and xenos press the funny hijack button, it is already xeno minor even if they get wiped out shipside. I also complain about hijack, am I a xenomain, or still dirty marinemain?

everyone complains about hijack

most players dont consider xeno minor a xeno win (lmao)

@Cabal

am I a xenomain, or still dirty marinemain?

??? what was the point of this statement

@Cabal

Arguably survivors suiciding behind cades need that. Not marines, though.

they dont

@Cabal

Debunked my cybernetic bottom.

i debunked it myself, happy?

@Cabal

It doesn’t prevent xenos from having fun, because they get to interact and counteract that, unlike survs suiciding behind cades.

xenos can, infact, interact and counteract survivors

@Cabal

I wasn’t writing to you. Wasn’t that heavily implied that I was responding with that quote solely to kooarbiter? You have seen me ingame once most likely because I mostly play on weekends during european daylight hours. Recently very regularly.

so? i also play on weekends, during european daylight hours

I’ve never seen you on more than once.

@Cabal

While my brain marinemaining can’t be denied, I do play the game and you lie just because you haven’t seen me much.

@Cabal

lie

this coming from you is the funniest thing ever

@Cabal

The whole thread is not about that for sure, just read it. If survs suicide, I have only issue with if they do it behind cades, just as xenos are about to break into, other than that it is 100% fine as stated previously.

this does not happen often enough to be an issue

@Cabal

But if you posit the idea that xenos are just toys for survs and they can do every dirty and unfun trick just because it is the most optimal thing and stuff like that, you are no better

nobody said this

@Cabal

Talking about strawmanning, ironic.

again, hilarious

@Cabal

Glad that you admit that you have stakes in this thread, defending survivors from survivor perspective. I’m a marinemain, you are a survmain.

nobody said this (again)

@Cabal

So when do you stop doing something potentialy allowed by server rules that is not 100% optimal? I can answer that for you: “Never”.

plenty of times? survivors do plenty of unorthodox strats (you would know this if you played the game)

@Cabal

Yes, even if marines suicide in the event of failed evacuation then they achieve something, which is denying cap. They have 0 chances to be revived though, unlike survs in metahold spots.

this is so untrue its actually hilarious

@Cabal

Not in most cases, no. Because there is still a big chance for marines to arrive in this 5 minute window to revive a surv. No marine will come back from total evac to revive marine who PBed himself in LZ full of xenos, or outside of it even. If queen comes off-ovi just to gib one surv corpse, then that queen deserves to be killed by marines in first few minutes of deployment.

@Cabal

Because there is still a big chance for marines to arrive in this 5 minute window to revive a surv.

no???

marines deploy late, the survivors usually perma by then

@Cabal

It is allowed, but was heavily restricted due to surv complaints that queen abuse the system and jump out of tunnels. Queens played as optimal as possible, roleplay friendly and all of that, but survivor tears still filled all containers in the colony

@Cabal

Queens played as optimal as possible, roleplay friendly and all of that, but survivor tears still filled all containers in the colony.

the queens that did this explicitly did it to get it nerfed, and you are calling it roleplay friendly lmaooooo

@Cabal

This isn’t an issue I brought up as anything but an example of a fault in logic of extending survivor fixes/nerfs to marines. If R-walling is an issue, it can be only an issue when survivors do it, because when marines come to the planet, T3s who can break those walls are already possible to evolve into.

this discussion is not about Rwalls, it is quite literally not an issue here (???)

@Cabal

Talking about strawmanning, ironic.

@Cabal

But we might start again, fresh, without word vomit and quotes of a quotes of some quote, so time for a kind of experimental forum framework: Condensation and wipe of previous statements. Lets assume I didn’t write anything, here are my main points as short as possible:

1. Survivors suiciding behind cades seems to be an issue, otherwise it is completly 100% fine
2. If any fix/nerf/buff were to come adress that, it shouldn’t impact marines.

Argue with that.

Sure. Why not.

1. Survivors don’t do that, atleast not regurarly enough to do something about it. It’s only done by newish players, and even then they usually perma anyways, sooo…
2. This does not need any of these things, beacuse it’s not an issue.

There you go.

[DukeofCagliostro (Archibald V. Cartwright)]

Cooler heads will prevail.

[DanielHoc]

While i do not agree that survivors commiting suicide is that big of the issue to actually do anything about it - cabal is mostly right in what he was saying, there are survivors who just shoot themselves before xenos breach cades after 00:20 to get revived by marines - it is not uncommon but as i said i do not think it requires mechanical or administrative solution (plus i don’t think you could even code mechanical restrictions due to people accidentaly setting themselves on fire, lagging into fire after using flamethrower).

Since cabal not playing the game was an important part of your reponse, i have seen him playing myself multiple times and i don’t really notice names of people playing during the same rounds but i do remember him. Also maybe you don’t play the game since you assume there are 4-6 monkeys groundside…

Usually it’s 2, on very low pop 1, somewhere around 160+ third starts to spawn.

Solutions to survivors suiciding:

Defender - you can’t stop survivors from shooting themselves from behind cades

Burrower - while valid it is unlikely to stop survivors from killing themselves while there is at least two since usually at least one person has shotgun

Spitter - you can speed up the death of survivor

Prae - same as spitter

Sentinel - valid

Queen - valid but unpractical since it’s not worth going all the way (usually next to LZ) to survivors hold

In conclusion: i don’t think it it’s worth to put any restrictions/penalties for survivors commiting suicide but i wanted to clarify some bad faith/uninformed arguments.