The survivors situation is slop.

General Discussion
61

Some of the tools to bypass the gameplay loop include molotovs, lockerhiding, rwalls, secure dome, etc. The survivor gameplay loop is supposed to end once marines arrive to the colony.

Removing options like r-walling entirely rather than just making them more risky to do just encourages the other types of behaviour listed here. Lockerhiding, molotov-spamming, these are all trying to solve the same problem: ‘I want to play the game, not die because I didn’t do everything I could when i’m being attacked with everything the opposition has’. (and I hate molotovs, and I dislike r-walls, even If I think they should remain)

Until the root of the issue is solved there’s just going to be more behaviour that attempts to bypass the gameplay loop rather than interacting with it because survivors are in the one-down position in nearly all scenarios, which isn’t the issue inherently, it’s how they’ve been placed in that position that is the issue.

Gambling for victory and loss is just a powerful motivator to partake in that loop.

This I 100% agree with though. Survival should not be guaranteed, but the potential for victory is what we should be aiming for. Quite literally a gamble based on the circumstances you find yourself in during a given round. (Victory being survival, not killing all the xenos)

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Easily disproven? I tested it ingame, mk2 ended up with less ammo after critting a drone than the mar40.

You made up a strawman and did a dps comparison which have nothing to do with “taking less bullets to kill”

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Yes hello did you have the drone moveing? Mar 40 is hella slow not on burst and burst makes you miss A lot of shots.

Now the Mar 30 is better then mk2 (mar 30 has better stats then the improved m40) mar 30 is the best you know? Other then the mar 50 I love the mar 50 shit spawns only for clf and on big red in mining : - ) what was I typing about? Ah yes the tier list

My tier list of the MAR GUNS

Mar 30 is S tier a very good gun and has ammo on most maps.it’s a tier above the MAR 40 for its improved recoil and accuracy.

Mar 40 A tier a good gun but some how worse then the out dated Mar 30 it’s very slow and misses ALOT

MAR 50 S+ One of the best weapons even a newly gotten survivor can frag out (it’s very peak)

Only downsides to the MAR 50 is its very rare and often melted on Big red before you get to it or even worse hived on. (Clf get one too : -). )

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  1. I didn’t make the DPS comparison. 5let did. How could I have made a strawman if I didn’t make anything? :slightly_smiling_face:
  2. Since you tested it ingame would you post your results, please? Calling an argument a strawman and then not offering evidence you say you have isn’t an argument either :^P
  3. If you disagree with the DPS comparison what exactly is wrong with it? It’s done in conditions favourable to the MAR-40 and it still underperforms comparatively to the MK2? The MAR-40 is inaccurate as shit and fires slowly and on a moving target (which isn’t in the DPS test, so if anything it’s generous) that matters alot.
  4. …how is a DPS comparison irrelevant to this comparison? Time to kill matters more for the assertion ‘the MAR-40 is better than the MK2’ than ammo economy, especially on comparatively inaccurate gun like the MAR-40 where you can miss bullets very easily. If your sole point is that it hits harder nobody really disagreed with you man, but that doesn’t make it better than the MK2 like you’ve tried to say it is. The basira also hits pretty hard, why don’t you use that? Because it sucks. It doesn’t matter how hard it hits if in every other category it is inferior.
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Pretty cut and clear to me. Only damage is superior and the other categories are, for the most part, inferior. The worst part is that this is a normal MK2, which doesn’t have the utility of a UGL or any of the attachments that can make it even better. Whereas the MAR-40 only has a few attachments it can accept, a few of which are barely useful at all.

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nothingburger of a thread, a post like this is made every 6~ months or so complaining about the exact same things, using the exact same arguments, and it just devolves into people pointlessly arguing

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The mar-30 is useful because it’s a carbine. That means you can move at full speed with it (it doesnt apply wield slowdown). And it also has a pretty high theoreatical dmg per whatever the wiki’s time measurement is/60 (which i will now abbreviate to DPS in lieu of a better word and assume the result is damage per second). A mar-40 has about a 140 maximum DPS. (If considering the wiki’s accurate with the mar-40 dealing 55 dmg, at 160 dps, and the mar-30 dealing 49 dmg, at 181 dps).

Mk2 has a DPS of 150 on burst mode, and 176 on single fire. The mar-40 does do less dmg and this can be noticeable in ttk. The minimum ttk of a mk2 on a drone is 2.84 seconds. Mar-30 and mar-40 both have significantly slower firerates on singlefire then on burstfire.

If considering the mar-40, it’s a minimum of like 3.4 second TTK on a drone, which is pretty good all things considered, but a drone also moves quickly so it’s hard to finish them off and stay near them as a survivor since you have no armor, thus your own ttk can’t just facecheck the drone and win without the drone having an opportunity to fight back or utilize terrain.

Mar-30 has a minimum ttk of 2.7 seconds. Higher dps has diminishing returns as TTK gets lower, because 500/x to equal TTK deaccelerates as numbers get higher and never reaches 0

note is on burst mode mar-40 is very close to mk2 burst mode dps. But I’m not sure the delay between shots during burstmode, it may be prohibitively ass.

In comparison mar-30 burst mode has a much higher burst mode dps then mk2.

Higher single shot damage is useful though for survivor, which must consider ammo economy in how good a weapon is. Most guns are accurate within 3-4 tiles and that is the optimal range to start and end engagements usually (as marine). As survivor it can depend on the situation I think whether it’s worthwhile to pursue and theres a lot more factors outside of your control without allies to help. It’s hard to justify fighting the enemy as survivor, unless you can gaurantee a kill or valuable dmg/resource utilization.

Ammo economy is necessary to understand how long you can pressure your enemy. Because more dmg per ammo creating more ammo per slot of inventory space means more dmg/pressure per resource overall, even if the pressure at any point of time may be less due to a lower ROF.

You can say this about any thread on the forums, and you could find examples and counterexamples in each thread. But that’s fine because people view topics at different times and read different amounts of posts and put different amounts of effort in. The point is discussion is fun and even if largely repetitive it’s still valuable in the pursuit of achieving greater understanding stuff for everyone involved.

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This is a better point than:

truth nuke: I kill preds with mar40 (like you can’t with knives or pistols when you aim well with good ammo or luck :woozy_face:)

but I still find in most circumstances that the theoretically superior ammo-economy is largely irrelevant in most use-cases.

The MAR-40 has piss-poor accuracy, and this is especially noticeable if your target is more than three tiles away from you. You’ll be wasting ammo shooting and not hitting whereas with an MK2 (which some maps have spawn) you’ll be missing significantly less often, engaging from further away with more success, and wasting less time shooting but not hitting anything. It doesn’t sound like a huge difference, it’s 1 or 2 tiles most of the time, but it really, REALLY is.

More importantly in my opinion you’re missing opportunity cost with the MAR-40 compared to… well, anything else. I’m not referring to ‘if you take a MAR-40 when you have other options that’s a bad choice’ kind of opportunity cost, although i still believe that, it’s the fact if you’re missing shots with it (which with the MK2 is alot harder) enemies will get away from a potentially lethal engagement easier. This, in my opinion (and I think most people will agree) matters a lot more.

This is a prime example of why the MAR-50 is placed above the other two MARs and the MK2. It’s accurate (atleast comparatively) compared to the two and has better ammo economy, so it’s not a trade-off at all.

You’ll be wasting ammo shooting and not hitting whereas with an MK2 (which some maps have spawn) you’ll be missing significantly less often.

This is more important because 90% of the time as survivor if you want to survive a protracted engagement ammo usually isn’t the issue, although it definitely can be, it’s the fact that xenos are managing to get you to shoot them enough to waste ammo but not enough to kill them. This is the fundamental problem with the comparison. The poor accuracy makes securing kills difficult whereas if you had the MK2 it is piss-easy.

You can say this about any thread on the forums, and you could find examples and counterexamples in each thread. But that’s fine because people view topics at different times and read different amounts of posts and put different amounts of effort in. The point is discussion is fun and even if largely repetitive it’s still valuable in the pursuit of achieving greater understanding stuff for everyone involved.

Truth nuke.

For future reference, I have stats directly comparing the two side-by-side.

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I think it’s really open and shut to be completely honest. The MAR-40 only has one area of objective advantage: The damage per hit. In every other category, it is subpar or equal. It wouldn’t matter if it was just one category that was worse than the MK2: The fact that it’s worse at all is the crux of my point.

The MAR-40 is NOT better than the MK2. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Wait since when? :open_mouth:

I think survivors are great. Honestly the best thing this update can do is generalize the spawns to an emergency armory that no one has the time to open until the Queen went on Ovi. So that would remove power gaming guns and equipment at least. Maybe there needs to be an armor skill so that survivors are debuffed in light armor just for balance.

Keep rare spawns and gear. Generalize the rest. Let the survivors be able to pass a basic test to enlist or allow conscription through the XO, CO, or CL. It will make it much better for survivors during their gameplay loop and add a little niche to actually being rescued.

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While I like the MAR-30 I don’t think it’s better than the MK2. It’s not as noticeably poor as the MAR-40 in a comparison considering it’s a carbine and shoots fast but it’s still just… not as good. There’s nothing wrong with that of course, but when people say things like ‘the MAR 30/40 is better than the MK2’ for instance, well, it’s just plain untrue.

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70

Sorry I didn’t get to this earlier, I didn’t see it when you posted it :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

While it is absolutely true that it kind of sucks there’s no counterplay (in some situations anyway, I’ve captured survivors trying to kill themselves before as drone) I don’t think there’s a fair way to make survivors stop doing this. Because, again, well… it makes complete sense to do a lot of the time, both from a roleplay perspective and a player perspective.

Making it so you can’t self-damage sounds ridiculous and silly to me, and that’s the only real way I can currently think of that would stop it. And even then, you’d probably find ways around it very easily. (Having another survivor shoot you, shooting a fuel tank, welder + fuel tank, overdosing yourself on a chem that’ll kill you quickly, the list goes on)

Personally I think it’s a non-starter, something out of character for the game entirely, considering in Aliens (1986) (and deleted scenes I think) they do exactly that on two different occasions that comes to mind. Burke when Ripley hands him a grenade while he’s nested, and Gormann and Vasquez killing themselves with a grenade when they realize they’ve ran out of ammunition. We shouldn’t be taking it as law of course, not everything needs to be lore-accurate or screen-accurate and I’d actually normally argue that it shouldn’t have to be, but it feels very antithetical to the series in this case.

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if you can kill multiple xenos at once then you can kill one xeno by yourself. Stop blaming the game, when it is you who is bad at the game.

truth nuke: I kill multiple xenos alone

also saying marines shouldn’t be able to 1v1 is crazy when the entire point of certain castes is to do better alone and do better as a team (no matter the player)

^Look how stupid I make myself sound, does this sound familiar? :melting_face:

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every DPS discussion in this thread is just a xeno standing to die when xenos are constantly on the move and you can miss your shots

very real

just stop rushing survivors alone and stop salting when you die 1v1

move this to acid goop already

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u first

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I am in the process of moving this to acid goop.

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thank you but did you know that I killed a pred with the mar40?

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That was actually one of my points before I posted the direct-stat comparison.

The DPS test between the two is favourable to the MAR-40 considering it’s poor accuracy and the fact it’s exacerbated by moving yourself and shooting at a moving target and it still underperforms :broken_heart: If anything the fact that it does so proves the MK2 is better :slight_smile:

move this to acid goop already

I think there was valid concerns raised and it’s always good to talk about things that’re on peoples minds regarding the game but it did de-evolve pretty off-topic after a few posts :woozy_face:

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Post a link to prove it or I am going to have the Predator Cord gang stalk you.

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literally*

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Fixed it for you

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that octavian guy can’t frag the broad side of a barn :broken_heart:

i watched him get capped by a larva one round

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