Yes! Bring fearsome charger queen! I will be main queen then, i can finally be a proper charger again. (Dreams away)
Atleast make it into a queen stain.i beg
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I would like to mention queen is under âSPECIALIST / SUPPORTâ
Itâs abilities are designed to be SUPPORT based (which they are) with the hive consisting as a main force that benefits off its support.
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spitter is still good
ravagers are still good
all stuns are instakills with teammates
crushers stomp is still aoe and still does mega-slowdown
thatâs just how highpop works. find ways to beat it.
I think you are overstating things, marines r killed 1 by 1 and its fine so long as theyâre in open areas. If you walk into the death chunk and die instantly its noones fault but your own
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I am going to be honest here as xeno player and marine. As xeno i would love nothing more than co queen ovi. Since the start of the idea of ovi queen only i have supported it. But as stupid sadar is, queen is the same. âItâs just one personâ as marine i let the sheildmeat go at her while i am in the back loading my ap ammo. As xeno itâs honestly different. Marines only see it as cap option, sutch a boring and op thing. But as xeno endless of times she uses the screech to hold marines back while hivelord and drones make defences behind her. With my 2k xeno hours i can easly know what queen orders are âdrone/hivey make defences behind me while i hold themâ it is pretty often with competent queens. Specially after a OB/Cas. Its just one person who can screech, no one else. You really want to remove the screech and buff every t3 to replace what a single queen do after a OB/Cas? Then as marines we would face t3âs so strong that stunning marines after ob cas would be impossible to balance. Very high pop only. Than high pop would be a stomp. Medium pop would be stomp. And lowpop, we should make lowpop greenlight. If you make t3 to balance a queen, just think on the lowest pop. Nah, i rather it just be like sadar and other spec. Just one, perfectly balanced. If she dies the hive to keep up. I dont want to face 4-5 OP ravs. No thank you
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Yeah. Problem is lots of discussion about how to improve combat queen is locked to just talkes about how to change her screech. I mean, look at this thread. All people talk about is her screech.
So its not that easy to find proper ways to improve upon her.
Btw, little fun fact. You cant nerf the screech in a significant way, because she of her lack of abilitys.
You cant just nerf things for the hell of it after all. The cast needs to be fun to play as. Not only fun to play against.
I have absolutely no idea what you meant by this. Are we defining the strength of a caste by âhow many uniqe abilitysâ [sic] they have? Are we going to ignore the fact that Screech is easily the single most powerful ability in the game, shortly followed by neuro spit?
I genuinely have a mind to think that youâre trolling with this post.
I couldnât have asked for a better example, thank you.
See, a lot of problems with balancing queen is people being unable to think of her more then her screech.
The moment you utter anything along the lines of:
People become unable to procces anything else of what was said properly, being completly focused on their predisposed opinion on the matter.
Its so bad, people are unable to read two words further in the same sentence.
You know, being that the statment was that she is a weak from a design perspective. With no mention even once about her actual ingame perforamnce. Yet its all people think about.
And why that happens is simpel, its because combat queen IS the screech. There is nothing more to her really.
Willzadl so perfectly shown it as well.
The main argument for queen being strong is, the Screech. Thank you for that example Willzadl.
âBut the neuro spit was also mentionedâ Yes, as an off note. Neurospit was not describted as âeasily the single most powerful abilityâ now was it?
Now, the big problem comes from something that is honestly pretty hilarious.
I didnt mention once she is weak ingame performance wise before.
But she still is. I just didnt mention it yet.
And before you come at me with how strong she is because âREEEEEâ and also her screech.
I want you, yes you, to go play spitter. But you have a few rules you will need to follow while playing it.
- Your not expandable. Your not allowed to do risky plays. Pretend your asbcents alone by death would cause a major disatvantage for the hive
- Your only allowed to slash and spit. Acid spray and empowerd spit are not allowed to be used. EVER. If you use them once, you failed the challange.
Thats it.
Its an incredibly close simulation of the majority of the combat queens gameplay time.
And no whinning about âno screech or neuroâ. Thats the point.
Do that, and you migth understand what the statment âqueen is weakâ really means.
2 Likes
Your attitude is hilariously pathetic. Youâre acting like I âwalked into your genius trapâ when everything you posted was a complete nothingburger except for the fact that you ignored Screech entirely, dismissing it as â1 uniqe abilityâ.
Why are you acting like you never said she was weak, when your entire comment is denigrating the power of combat queen, and actually calling it âsuch a bad castâ (caste)? Why are you even trying to discuss âfrom a design perspectiveâ as if that has any separation from the real, in practice performance of the combat queen? Itâs not like the devs went and said âoh, weâll give her a weak ability which stuns an entire screen of marinesâ, no, this was designed to be strong, she is and has always been designed to be very strong.
How can you honestly think that the Queen has âweak ingame performanceâ, when this entire thread is discussing how she is the Xeno lynch-pin?
I, again, have genuinely no idea what youâre talking about with spitter. Are you comparing the Queen to spitter with no acid spray? Why? How are they similar in any way shape or form? How can spitter without any acid spray be âa close simulation of the majority of combat queens gameplayâ?
Your entire argument is again, relying on totally ignoring the strength of Screech. Why? The Queen is not weak if she has Screech, so why are you calling her weak without it? To what purpose does that serve? What argument are you trying to make? Everyone here has said that without a shadow of a doubt you cannot just remove Screech from Queen, as thatâs what gives her her combat ability. So why are you trying to convince us all that sheâs bad without Screech and Neuro? We know.
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I donât think you get my entire post. I was comparing OLD xeno to CURRENT xeno, not whatever you think xeno actually is. For example, yes Crusher is still AoE stomp, but the stomp Crusher used to have was a mini-screech in stun length (3-4 seconds from my memory).
Ravager is âstill goodâ but it was insanely better back then, as Ravager damage was huge; it was a 2-3 slash delimb, fire did NOT longer on ravager at all like it does now (yes I know it does no damage to Rav, but it lights him up and prevents healing till its removed). Spitter is âgoodâ but its nowhere near old spitter that could keep half a squad at bay due to burn damage being a significant danger back then instead of a mild nusance that you can shrug off with basic tram + kelo, let alone if you chug an unga mix of oxy + keloderm like most experienced players prepare nowadays.
I did read the post and I understand what you mean. I think your comparisons are overestimating things though - many of these changes happened years ago and castes are simply still effective. I also disagree that this matters - I think itâs good that xenos have changed to be âweakerâ in comparison to release-day OP. Xeno is still fun, itâs just not easy now and thatâs fine.
Weakness creates layers of counterplay - often resulting in teamwork being the best option to cover your weaknesses (or target enemy weaknesses). Itâs a good thing for niche-based gameplay like this game, since that adds potential complexity to interactions.
Complexity of interactions makes victory, usage of mechanics, and learning more in-depth and satisfying imo.
Difficulty serves a similar purpose - making learning more in-depth and satisfying IMO. It adds layers of difficulty - which is great for PVP games like this, whereas you slowly get more skilled you get whole new perspectives (layers) of the game to explore. Mastering them is very satisfying.
I do not think any of these changes inherently ruin the game or make it less fun long-term. But it does change how you are able to play the game. Many of the artificial âOUGH MEAT MARINE KILL >:Dâ immediate satisfaction stuff can just be added with better sound design, SOUL design, and visual effects - but modifying gameplay for this purpose alone doesnât sound too ideal imo. And personally? I think thereâs still plenty of SOUL design.
If a change instead focused on adding complexity while not impacting the effectiveness or depth of other aspects of the game - thatâs why niches are good.
And further - in terms of a ratio of challenge to enjoyment? I think the castes are fine - some are easier then others, some are harder (which markets to different types of players). Theyâre enjoyable to learn! Enjoyable to play. Enjoyable to win. Some castes have higher potential - but they all have fairly high potential in good hands.
Ravager damage is still huge. it is undoubtedly one of the best castes rn.
Spitter is still a good caste. It fits its role and niche well, and has fun gameplay IMO.
Whatcha talking about, i love screeching and seeing my hive grow!!! Without the screech the queen would be meh or worst.
Oh no, you missunderstand. Its not like you fallen into some eleborate trap.
Its just i expected some people to be confusing the statment âweak designâ with âweak performanceâ.
And i was wondering why nobody actually said anything about that, but then you kinda came from the heavens to deliver the picture pefect example of confusing the two.
Its sweet though that you think i would be able to even do something as close to that complicated.
But if the use of the word âweakâ confused you that badly, i just switch to âpoorâ. Means 1:1 the same in context.
Also, if you wanna know why i compared spitter and queen, its because they share an ability.
The normal acid spit. Sentinal and Prae also have that very same ability. And they all use the variations of the same projectiles.
The whole idea behind that little âchallangeâ is that its what combat queen is most of the time.
I get its weird on paper to see the argument âShe is weak if you take the strong thingâ.
Problem is, that ability isnt removed by me in a weird example. Its removed by the game, for most combat queens.
A mayority of game time for combat queens, is with Screech not avalibel to them.
Thats just a fact.
I happily repeat that more clearly.
MOST GAMEPLAY TIME WITH COMBAT QUEEN DOES NOT HAVE SCREECH AVALIBEL
There, that should have made it clear.
To argue about how to balance queen and ignoring this big problem of her, is to blind yourself of the cause of her problems.
As i previously stated (wich was yet again skimmed over)
she cant have screech significently nerfed in any way because of this.
Her entire kit is build around the screech as her main form of impact on the round.
But i just repeat what said before, so if its still to hard to understand, let me give you an example.
Imagine every role in the game needs to reach a value of 100 point of power to be viable.
They all reach that treshhold via their abilitys and gear.
Lots of roles actually surpassing 100 because they are either T3 and so more expensive, or through limited gear they can get.
Now, in this example the screech would roughly be worth 70 points and brings queen to 100.
Said screeh being one of the most valubel abilitys point wise.
Besides thats she has only one other ability that is worth 30 points, acid/neuro spit, and already close to being too strong. Wich is why it cant gain any more points.
So, if you want to nerf her screech and lower the points it worth, where to you put the remaining so she reaches the treshold of 100?
You have nowhere else to put it but one place, said place already is worth too many points.
That is why she is empty. Why she is Poor design wise.
And btdubs.
That challange i suggested was to give you a good idea of the problems she causes for players.
Not marines, but players playing queen. Just generally how boring it is to play as her.
If âHer opressive pressence cant be properly balanced because of her poor designâ with extensive reasoning for siad statment is a nothingburger to you, then i honestly dont know what a ⌠somethingburger? would be for you.
Edit:
I noticed i never explained you what weak design, or poor design rather, means. Eventhough thats one thing you actually asked for.
Simply put, its not how strong something is or not. In video games, it would be what the fundemantal things are someone/something can do.
Like how trapper can set mines and boiler shoot gas clouds. Their main diffrence isnt in numbers, but design wise. Yes, there is a number diffrence there. But you wouldnt call it their main diffrence, now would you?
Get away from forums if you donât wanna read. Simple as.
3 Likes
From lore standpoint it is kinda stupid. She should be sitting in hive till marines are knocking on the resin door. In movies she has 0 unique abilities besides being big and kinda smart.
Queen should be a xeno CO.
But it will never happen. First is that it would be hard to balance (screech exists for years) and second is the current CM policy of religiously following âassimetricalâ gameplay where if marine CO sits in CIC and never deploys personally then Queen has to be present during combat all the time.
I can finally understand what youâre saying to a degree now, but I donât understand why you think itâs a problem. Queen is a high-impact, high-damage caste which does a massive attack with screech and then retreats - thatâs how you prevent the caste from becoming too oppressive. If the Queen was as cumulatively powerful as she is now but with lower cooldowns, it would be extremely oppressive as marines have no downtime to recover from her (except while sheâs healing, i guess.)
itâs fun to take the time to write your thoughts down and consider everything. you donât gotta read everything you can just find a single post and reply if you want.
(honestly tho the posts on this thread arenât that long, a lot of them donât really even need tldrs)
Thats the thing.
She doesnt need to be comulativly powerful.
You can give her more abilitys without making her too strong in her downtime. Afterall, nobody is forcing you to make those abilitys that strong. You can make em however you like.
Problem is, SHE HAS NOTHING TO DO.
There is a fun little problem spread in a lot of CMs balance.
Being that someone balanced a lot of shit by making it unfun to play with in exchange for being strong.
Wich is a balance phylosophie so bad that qualifies you to be strapped to a chair in a dark room by Yoko Taro for your crimes against the artform as a whole.
If you didnât know, this is a video game. More specificly, this i digital entertainment. Entertainment usually tries to be entertaining.
Making something intentionally unfun and boring to do, to justify its strength, is not entertaining. Its activly trying to avoid being that.
And Combat Queen is boring as shit. She can do one thing every 5 minutes, and then has to just awkwardly stand there.
Wich yes, she cant be too strong. But punishing the player with boredom, because they playd how you told them to, using their main ability, is bad design.
So no, i do not belive combat queen is good. I do not belive queen has well balanced. And i belive arguing for the notion of keeping something unfun for balance, is one of the stupidest things that can be done.
Queen gameplay isnât boring. That is subjective and noob like opinion. You control the flow of battle, screech, slash dodge, heal. While healing overwatch xenos for flanks and weak points on marine front. While on ovi build , overwatch, plan your next moves. What i see most people, who claim queen is boring, just bashing into marines, trying to brute force, without even using 90% of her kit.
I find queen very interesting role with tons of things to do.
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My guy, i would be carefull when saying shit like ânoob like opionâ, because you missed the point entirly.
Most of your points are about the interesting and fun stuff queen can do on ovi. Wich are correct, on ovi queen is incredibly fun.
But the entire discussion is about when she is off ovi and activly engaging in battle.
Its in the titel.
That part of her gameplay, where she has one main ability, that is most effectve directly in the enemy lines.
Wich is probably why most people you see complain about her often, are figthing marines directly and not using most of her kit.
Because they cant choose to do anything else. Not having acces to those 90% of her kit and being insetevised via gameplay to bash into the enemy o use her main ability most effectivly.
Also fun fact, did you know that a good chunk of xenos have higher consitent slash dmg then queen?
She rolles for dmg between tier 4-6. tier 6 being the dmg rav does with every hit, no rolling. With every combat T3 (so not boiler) having garuenteed higher dmg then tier 4 with every hit.
Btw, a couple of T2 can role for Tier 4-5 dmg as well. One being carrier, yes carrier can sometimes cause more dmg with its slash then queen.
Combat queen is fun, itâs a more actively strategic playstyle to carry your team. Neuro spit remains incredibly powerful and useful even during screech downtime.
While I donât think itâs a bad idea to add new abilities to Queen, I also donât agree that sheâs horrifically designed. She is fun to play (for the players who enjoy her stressful McDonalds Manager gameplay), and to some degree, very enjoyable and unique to fight. Her kit is very in-depth in terms of interactions, counterplay, and situational usage of abilities. There is enjoyable skill expression to her kit, although it could definitely be increased to the benefit of the caste imo.
Simplicity is elegant design.