Vicacrov - Staff Report: Violation of Event Protocols - Biolock

[Vicacrov]

Vicacrov - Staff Report: Violation of Event Protocols - Biolock

What’s your BYOND key:

Vicacrov

Round ID:

21290

Your character name:

VIC

Their BYOND key:

Biolock

What are you reporting?:

Violation of Event Protocols

Description of the incident:

I can only assume this was a violation of event protocols, but I cannot for the love of my life find the actual protocols on the wiki. :waaa: Please point me to the right direction.

Round 21290, xenos hijacked, they arrived on the Almayer. It was a back and forth between the two sides with both marines and xenos going around and pushing in groups. During one of these skirmishes, the Queen walked up to marines and just got obliterated by a bipoded M60 before anyone could react. There was no heads up about an adminspawn/event/anything happening. Marines simply got an overpowered weapon that sent the Queen straight to Jesus.

This has been a tendency with admin events where one side gets a massively OP thing (xenos got a massively overpowered Praetorian the other day), while the other side is neither compensated nor notified about it. Other than making dchat go hee hee haa haa when one side walks into an unexpectedly strong weapon, this just feels like softgriefing from staff.

I really do not mind which staff member did it, all I ask for is please stop doing this. There is zero reason balancing the game if someone with +SPAWN can alter the round this way.

Evidence:

I would attach a video, but it cannot be done in this form, let’s hope the forum version will allow me.

Edit: video too big, rip. Please DM me on Discord for it: adri

[Biolock]

Hello Vicarov,

It was me, I exchanged a smartgunner his smartgun and ammo for an M60 with the drum in the mag-well and no extra ammunition during hijack.

I don’t remember who I gave it to, but they used it to great effect: saving their ammunition for an opening when they could fire on the advancing queen. The queen was focus fired by a marine squad as well, but the M60 undoubtedly did the most significant damage.

Also: Event Guidelines

[Steelpoint]

Edited OP to reflect information. Will pull logs.

[ihatethisengine]

I compressed the video so it can fit the forums

[Biolock]

To speak a bit in my own defense.

In the face of hijack, it seemed pretty mundane to provide a marine with a low ammo M60 in exchange for their smartgun. I figured that yes, the M60 is crazy strong in the right situation, but any number of things can prevent that effectiveness, and a smartgun with full ammo would probably be just as impactful if not moreso given it could provide consistent fire throughout the entirety of the end round. I figured, what is the harm in letting one of the players toy around with one of the special weapons? I let a wide array of players play with fun toys every once in a while after all.

Well, this round (round 21290) the perfect situation set itself up for the M60 user to expend their limited ammunition in the most effective way possible. Had the queen screeched earlier, had the queen had xenos at her vanguard, had she approached from a more narrow path, etc, the results could have been very different.

The fault for offering up the conditions for this situation rest solely with me, of course, but I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with letting players use unique items and equipment, even if those items have the propensity to impact the round. There are a lot of strong things in the game that are regularly provided as events and whatnot: ERTs, the vulture, tanks, predaliens, etc, and I do not think that something impacting a round’s outcome necessarily makes it wrong.

All this is to say that I am sorry that this spawn frustrated some people and led to unexpected deaths. I really only intended to provide a player and those around him with a fun experience during the end of round showdown, and did not mean to generate any salt. It must be noted that the queen was not one of the players upset by the M60, or at least they did not take it as seriously as those who were visibly bothered.

Ultimately, I do not think that there is any stable ground to argue that this was a condemnable action. This was not done for my own benefit, but for the enjoyment of others. Any staff spawn or interference has the propensity to drastically alter a round in unexpected (and sometimes expected) ways. All that said, the hosts can decide whether or not staff injecting unique items for players during hijack or the greater round is acceptable.

[ihatethisengine]

I am one of the players who was bothered (you can check this in LRC, also you can find a lot of interesting arguments there, like “it was hijack so it doesn’t matter”).

@Biolock

I figured that yes, the M60 is crazy strong in the right situation, but any number of things can prevent that effectiveness, and a smartgun with full ammo would probably be just as impactful if not moreso given it could provide consistent fire throughout the entirety of the end round.

You can see on the video how hard it was to get the right conditions. One second wind-up and the queen is dead. This is honestly baffling to call this anything fair and “conditional” and even compare this to smartgun. The gun is just broken, just as many admin-spawn guns. This is not even a new knowledge, many people remember how Warfan added M60 to his HvH map and how it ruined the event.

@Biolock

I figured, what is the harm in letting one of the players toy around with one of the special weapons? I let a wide array of players play with fun toys every once in a while after all.

Apparently there is harm, so maybe don’t do this again? Outside of events, this is a competitive game, and admins tipping the scales provide nothing but harm to the enjoyment.

@Biolock

There are a lot of strong things in the game that are regularly provided as events and whatnot: ERTs, the vulture, tanks, predaliens, etc, and I do not think that something impacting a round’s outcome necessarily makes it wrong.

Really? We are discussing a weapon that dealt over 1k damage in an instance. And you are still arguing it was an okay thing to do? Also yeah, if you spawned a tank without any notice and compensation for xenos, I would still be disappointed, but even tank is not as strong in comparison, so I wouldn’t be as disappointed.

@Biolock

Ultimately, I do not think that there is any stable ground to argue that this was a condemnable action. This was not done for my own benefit, but for the enjoyment of others. Any staff spawn or interference has the propensity to drastically alter a round in unexpected (and sometimes expected) ways.

It really doesn’t matter what goodwill you had to make it a condemnable action. “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”. If you outright gibbed the queen, it wouldn’t benefit you, but still would be a condemnable action, wouldn’t it? Yes, any staff interference would tip the scale. But obviously different levels of interference deal different levels of harm. I pretty much believe that a gun that deals over 1k damage in an instance should be off the table forever. This is not just a “toy”.

I want to additionally point out that it’s unclear if management need to obey the events protocols, but I want to bring up a precedent when Morrow (maint manager at the time) spawned MARSOC (also insanely OP) during hijack and at least was told to not do this again, so I really hope at least for the same outcome here.

ihatethisengine2 - Staff Report: Violation of Event Protocols - MorrowWolf

I was there at the time and spoke with Morrow regarding this. I don’t have issue with providing marine reinforcements given the circumstances, but concur that Marine Raiders was overkill. Resolved, Morrow has been spoken with regarding appropriate level of intervention.

[Biolock]

I am the subject of the report, so I am obviously not going to interfere directly with your comments, but please note that the rules of this section ask that people not post in the report unless they’re contributing evidence.

With it posted I feel obligated to offer quick replies, though I will be brief:

…also you can find a lot of interesting arguments there, like “it was hijack so it doesn’t matter”.

This is a strawman and misrepresentation. Those arguments were being made by some, but I was not the one to make those arguments, not there nor here; posting it like that might confuse people into thinking I made that argument. (This is actually the primary reason I decided to reply to your commentary)

Apparently there is harm, so maybe don’t do this again? Outside of events, this is a competitive game, and admins tipping the scales provide nothing but harm to the enjoyment.

This is an opinion. You’re ever entitled to your opinion, and your opinion holds value, but that is not a fact or a universally shared perspective.

We are discussing a weapon that dealt over 1k damage in an instance… if you spawned a tank without any notice and compensation for xenos… I would still be disappointed, but even tank is not as strong in comparison, so I wouldn’t be as disappointed.

First, I’m not convinced that a 100 round M60 is stronger than a tank. Second, compensation for the opposing side is not a requirement of event protocols. Finally, while I am sorry you are disappointed, your disappointment is not a measurement by which staff reports are measured.

… I want to bring up a precedent when Morrow (maint manager at the time) spawned MARSOC (also insanely OP) during hijack and at least was told to not do this again, so I really hope at least for the same outcome here.

Forest’s response was, “I don’t have issue with providing marine reinforcements given the circumstances, but concur that Marine Raiders was overkill.”

Forest telling a manager that they should not spawn a fully equipped Marine Raider Deathsquad seems to be weak precedent for this case, but I digress.

[ihatethisengine]

@Biolock

This is a strawman and misrepresentation.

Does this count as evidence? The implication is pretty obvious to me, you mentioned hijack as it would make it more okay.

@Biolock

This is an opinion. You’re ever entitled to your opinion, and your opinion holds value, but that is not a fact or a universally shared perspective.

@Biolock

“I don’t have issue with providing marine reinforcements given the circumstances, but concur that Marine Raiders was overkill.”

So is a weapon that deals over 1k damage in an instance. I think this is a fitting precedent, this is why I brought it up. I am not sure though if former precedents even matter, but I think it is worth bringing up. You cannot argue that M60 wasn’t “overkill”, everyone who watched the video can see how overkill it was.

[Steelpoint]

Before posting logs, for the sake of contextual knowledge I did offline testing with a M60 against a combat ready Queen.

---

The M60 deals 45 damage per bullet, with 30 armour penetration. This means the weapon deals the full 45 damage to the Queen. The weapon has a 100-rnd box magazine loaded. When the weapon is deployed with a bipod, and the M60 comes with a bipod by default, this sets its rate of fire to 600rpm, or 10 rounds a second. I did a specific check and the gun does quite literally fire ten bullets a second. Ergo as the video above demonstrates this gives it extremely high damage, but the weapon exhausts its ammo very quickly.

---

Per this, relevant logs will be posted below.

Primarily involved parties.

Kaiden Houser | Smartgunner (Person Who Requests M60)
Biolock | Reported Staff

Smartgunner Kaiden Houser sends a prayer for a weapon trade.

Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:33:45.655 21290 ADMIN ADMIN: PRAY: /(Kaiden Houser
) (MARK) (PP) (VV) (SM) (JMP) (SC): heya biolock- are you maybe open to do something special regarding the smartgunner role or nah?

Inital Ahelp Between Biolock and Smartgunner

Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:34:48.868	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: Biolock/()->/(Kaiden Houser): Did you have something particular in mind?
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:35:26.685	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: /(Kaiden Houser)->Biolock/(): Hmm- well the m60 maybe, not sure fi that will work tho
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:36:02.622	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: Biolock/()->/(Kaiden Houser): Heh, I had a feeling that’d be what you wanted.

Biolock spawns the M60 gun kit, and deletes its spare ammo, on the admin z-level.

Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:36:12.102	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Biolock/() spawned /obj/effect/essentials_set/kit/m60 at (81,90,1)
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:36:15.762	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Biolock/() created 1 humans as strip at the �Admin Supply Drops Loading
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:36:21.580	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Biolock/() modified no key/(Kathy Harshman)'s ckey to biolock
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:37:12.367	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Build Mode: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) deleted M60 ammo box (7.62x51mm) at Admin Supply Drops Loading (81,90,1)
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:37:12.900	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Build Mode: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) deleted M60 ammo box (7.62x51mm) at Admin Supply Drops Loading (81,91,1)
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:37:13.311	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Build Mode: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) deleted M60 ammo box (7.62x51mm) at Admin Supply Drops Loading (81,92,1)
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:37:20.222	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) deleted Kathy Harshman at (80,92,1)

2nd Part Of The Ahelp

Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:36:56.209	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: /(Kaiden Houser)->Biolock/(Kathy Harshman): heh- i mean i like big gun and its the closest to smartgunner- besides minigun (wich is op)
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:37:48.112	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman)->/(Kaiden Houser): I will trade you your smartgun for an M60 with 100 rounds. It is VERY strong on a bipod, but 100 rounds is not much.
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:38:02.045	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: /(Kaiden Houser)->Biolock/(Kathy Harshman): oh damn- alright
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:38:17.279	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Build Mode: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) deleted the �M56B smartgun at Lower Deck Engineering Workshop (245,57,3)
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:38:31.691	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman)->/(Kaiden Houser): Go somewhere private so it doesn’t get nabbed.
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:38:48.350	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) launched a droppod
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:39:09.755	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: /(Kaiden Houser)->Biolock/(Kathy Harshman): nice thanks!
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:39:18.456	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman)->/(Kaiden Houser): Use the bipod. Have fun!
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:39:25.661	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: /(Kaiden Houser)->Biolock/(Kathy Harshman): thanks you too!
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:39:26.428	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: PM: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman)->/(Kaiden Houser): Also, automatic fire.

Biolock offers some LOOC advice

Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:47:08.138	21290	OOC	OOC: (LOCAL) Kathy Harshman/Biolock: Use the bipod on auto
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:47:11.624	21290	OOC	OOC: (LOCAL) Kathy Harshman/Biolock: It’s a laser beam

As the linked video above shows the death of the Queen, I don’t believe it is necessary to logpull the exact details of its death.

This is what the Queen had to say regarding its death in dead chat.

Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:50:40.061	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : whew, this after damage sure fucked me here
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:50:49.021	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : M60, mkay
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:51:15.029	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : aaaaah, the CO’s rifle too
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:51:19.019	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : well, sure.
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:51:44.822	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : I’m okay with it, no salt here
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:51:55.053	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : was it CHEF with M60?
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:52:05.325	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : ah, that’s SG
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:56:04.789	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : yeah, IO on DS was fun surprise
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:56:13.109	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : yes, there was M60
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:56:33.173	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD//(Elder Queen) : I screeched bit too late to evade this burst, as SG was given it

Biolock's deadchat commentary following the death of the Queen.

Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:50:42.295	21290	SAY	SAY: DEAD/Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) : Wow
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:51:25.004	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: DEAD: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) : So like… you know how you every once in a while wanna give a marine something fun during hijack? Like just a cute toy with only a tiny bit of ammo?
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:51:36.318	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: DEAD: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) : Just to make that marine’s day?
Mar 13, 2024 @ 09:51:45.137	21290	ADMIN	ADMIN: DEAD: Biolock/(Kathy Harshman) : You really don’t expect it to be that impactful

Following this, Biolock does some T-Dome stuff, as well as spawns themselves in as a human with a M60 in the T-Dome and fires it off at a Queen, presumably for testing purposes. Nothing else of note occurs.

---

In its entirety, Kaiden fired 69 bullets from their M60 rifle. They struck exactly 5 separate xenomorph targets. The Queen, a Lesser drone, Praetorian, Runner and Spitter.

Of these, the Praetorian and Runner were directly killed by the M60. The Lesser was an assist kill by the M60 and the Spitter survived to be killed later on by a unrelated Marine.

---

I did a quick scan and I can not see any admin helps regarding the incident.

[Vicacrov]

I think it is inevitable that admins sometimes spawn broken items, since if an item is not in rotation, it will not be maintained. I don’t mind the M60 absolutely shredding the Queen, at least this way we know it is too strong and contributors can fix it. It is insane to expect admins to know every single item and how they currently behave. (Ideally, they spawn in stuff first and test it, but testing stuff in tdome vs seeing it in action can be two very different experiences.)

I think spawning in toys is fun, the report is not for that. The report is for not notifying the other side that there is an experimental element in-game. (Again, the same goes for marines - if there are three queens in the round, please give them a heads up, even a vague one, so they can look out for irregularities).

CM is in a weird spot of “it is a story generator, but also a TDM game”, so I think it is a good idea to keep balance in mind, when it comes to fun stuff.

[forest2001]

Hi Vicacrov, apologies for the delay in responding to this.

I completely agree that it is inconvenient not knowing something has been changed but we don’t mandate staff to notify people as sometimes there are reasons or purposes for not doing so. In this instance due to the maximum 100 rounds vs replenishable and significantly more numerous smartgun rounds, and without IFF, I believe the M60 to be appropriately equal to (and potentially worse than) the SG itself.

That said, I’ve attached comparative weapon statistics for the purpose of assisting a decision on if it needs rebalancing.

No action will be taken against Biolock for this, however I will discuss/review with management whether or not the policy needs to be changed.