Thats not how things work. At all. Like… at all. You dont get rewarded for not fucking up.
You get rewarded for actually doing something.
But you clearly just have a lack of understanding of neurochemistry, so cant be helped.
And im not explaining that to you, your old enough to learn that by yourself.
But hey, what do i know. You seem to be 100% certain there is no flaw in this.
So ok, i wont try to argue about it anymore. https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Guide_to_Git
Go and do it. Nobody is stopping you from making that Pr.
Everyone on the discord will help you making the PR, if just you ask. No, there is no question you cant ask. And there is no question too dumb, i should know i ask a lot of dumb ones in coding chat.
I happily give you every bit of coding help too that i can, and even promise to shut my mouth about if its a good or bad idea. Frankly i dont really care anymore to show you why i think its bad.
Put your money where your mouth is. The only thing stopping you, is you.
Punishment is not good for it’s own sake. It’s about creating interesting decisions, risk vs reward, and tension/excitement.
You can get punished by a lurker if you run alone, which means you should try to make the decision of sticking with the group, or if you choose to go alone there is the tension of hoping you make it back safely and the risk of getting caught. This is fun.
Req budget is an example of interesting decisions, you have to decide which things to buy. This is fun.
Hedgehog rav is a reaction time test that can make combat a bit more interesting and exciting, and also makes the hedgehog harder to kill (it is meant to be a tanky T3). This is (mostly) fun (at least when you are not murdered by shards from all your allies shooting it). At the very least it’s supposed to be fun.
I don’t necessarily agree with Catzonwheelz here since I really don’t mind the turrets, but I can see the point he’s making and it feels like you are talking past it a lot rather than addressing it properly. The point (as I interpret it) is that destroying the turrets is more of a chore that xenos have to do every round rather than an interesting mechanic. Either the turrets do nothing because xenos broke them, or they are extremely powerful if survivors/marines get them running. There is no interesting decision in breaking them since breaking them is objectively the right thing to do, it is just kind of a chore. The only reason xenos wouldn’t break them is if everyone forgets or is lazy/afk.
This is a silly example but imagine if devs added a button to the Almayer that marines had to press every 30 minutes and if they didn’t the ship would explode and marines would lose, and people defended it by saying “it punishes players for fucking up! that’s good game design!” Just because something punishes players doesn’t automatically mean it’s good. You need another reason besides just that it punishes players.
Kind of feels like you are putting “punishment” up on a pedestal for weird reasons, like you think it’s virtuous or an excuse to be condescending.
Thanks you i fully understand if some does not agree with me but its really painful, trying to argue my point. when they can’t seem to get what i am trying to argue in the first place.
But yes you more or less hit the nail of what i was tying to say get get across with this
Oh im not talking past their point, i just anwserd it already and did not want to keep repeating it just because they didnt like my anwser.
The turrets are easy to deal with by choice. Their are a low effort task that is indeed more a chore. That isnt a bad thing.
It is a map hazzard that is meant to bring variation between map.
Said chore forces players to do thing A. Thing A, is only on Map X.
This way, you have garuenteed that Map X has diffrent gameplay.
“Chores” for that matter are an important part in having players be responsibel for their own actions.
It is something that needs to be done, It gives the player a clear goal. “i need to do this, or XYZ will happen.” It is such an effective part of game design there are game genres build around it.
One for example, any survival game really.
And, just because i really like that game and think its neat, i like to give Ruiner as an example.
Has nothing to do with giving players chores or smth. But it is a good exampel why things like the skinner box can work as a game. Psychological experiments.
That game is pretty much just using paplovian conditioning. Its not even subtle, your getting auditory rewards and are called a “Good puppy” for getting high scores.
And that game is incredibly addicting. It conditions the players into playing better, and releasing even more dopmain if they do. It hacks the players brain to enjoy the game more. Its bloody amazing. Highly recomend to check it out. Its called Ruiner.
The only real thrid way that exist is so the turrets are weak, but guaranteed and easy to turn on, but can’t be disabled/destroyed by xenos if they are not active.
This also won’t give you any interesting decision to make.
No fourth way about it. Either they don’t exist/xenos broke them, or are very good if survivors/marines get them, or they are weak, but survs/marines are guaranteed to get them.
What “interesting” decision you have in mind, hmmm? Why would there even be a choice of xenos not breaking some stuff planetside? If they are too lazy to do it, they were too lazy to do it, simple as.
It is just like with APCs and lights. You can spend the time and break them, or just sit AFK in hive.
Gearing up as marine is also a chore. Gathering smallhosts as xenos is also a chore. Scouting marine positions is a chore. Making tunnels as burrower is a chore. Building resin wall and doors is a chore. Everything is a chore.
Something like that existed in the past for quite some time. There were no explosions, but power outages. Yes, I mean the reactor/engine/whatever. There was no benefit for maintaining it, other than avoiding drawbacks of not maintaining it.
I personally think that for the sake of surivors (which I generally hate due to them interfering with marine vs xeno balance) there should be plethora of small, medium and a couple of big things that they can do planetside, with xenos being overwhelmed and not able to disable everything, so survs (and maybe later marines) make a choice based on what options they have available.
And it shouldn’t just be snowflake loot.
Some seismic machine to break/disable xeno tunnels etc. Tie that to “objective based gameplay”.
But that’s my issue it doesn’t really accomplish that goal. That’s why i don’t like how its implemented… it fails at bring meaningful variation. that has been my issue the whole time… some thing that is so easy worked around as to be pointless.
and so you have been talking past the point i have been making for the most part, resulting us going into the weeds of the nature how punishment should work.
you have being making the point that there should be a punishment mechanic be part of the gameplay, more or less have the game set up in such a way as to reward play agency. if some thing does not get done its on the player.
i have not been against this at all.
all you have being really saying is that the turret locks are fine how they are as its good to have this mechanic and not arguing why the implemented is good. If you think that the locks are fine how they are don’t dress it up and just flat out say that.
also i am no neuroscientist but i know that you can get rewarded for not “fucking up” yes you don’t get rewarded for not being punished but you can be rewarded for doing some accomplishment that principally allows you to avoid the punishment.
but no i understand that the lack of a pushisment is not a reward.
Edit: know what i think this is going to me my last reply to you we clearly are getting nowhere and i should know when to cut my losses.
ah but pray tell this is not quite the same! as there is thought needed, to be put into such matters.
How are you going to build your kit for the map and to work best with your fellows!
How to best place the tunnels as to be useful well being well hid!
How to best make a kill box that allows for good warrior grabs well also being hard to taken down!
How to best get the info, well not getting you self killed!
Yes in some sense they can be chore but they have some worth, that is mentally stimulating. There is great deal of interesting ways you can do these things or interesting ways you have to work around.
which is unlike the lock turrets, they lack anything that makes them stimulating.
Not necessarily, as if you restrict the ability to destroy closed turret to T3 it makes judging what locks are most important to take out a risk assessment and gamble on how the marines are going move. this has great more thought needed to be put into it, as if just one T3 going to go to the locks are are they all going to spread out to make sure all the locks are cleared leaving a risk of being cut off or the xeno front line falling apart.
is this perhaps a tad to hard on the xenos and to nice to the marines? maybe that would be fair argument against my idea.
still how the lock turrets as of now are kind of pointless addition and the storm locks themselves play a much bigger roll then the turrets ever do.
How does that change anything, really?
Still no decision to make, T3s as soon as they pop, just immediately go for all turrets to break them, while one of them (or queen orders so) goes for the closest one to marines. Those couple of minutes between marines arriving and T3s appearing is enough to break everything.
But T3s can be lazy and not break some/any/all turrets, so nothing changes in comparsion to current situation where all xenos can be lazy and not break some/any/all turrets. Literally doesn’t change the core of the issue, just puts the weight of doing that chore solely on T3s. Where is that famous decision making, where is a reward for doing some accomplishment that principally allows you to avoid the punishment? Nowhere. Still a chore.
It just buffs survs who have guaranteed powerfull turrets at every podlock.
Or you also nerf the turrets on top, so they become worthless and survs don’t bother to hold next to them, maybe activating them on the go, or leaving it for marines as a small bonus.
Or you just lock survs from ever using them before marines arrive.
The decision would be introduced only, if xenos could choose to break one lock, but have to leave the others more powerfull and indestructable till marines/survs reach and activate them. Or they can not break any and leave them all accessible, but in weaker state.
That decision, however, is too great to be left to some random xeno, or T3, only left up to Queen.
What are you going to destroy on the map that works best with your fellows!
How to acid the best map loot the fastest!
How to outsmart survivors trying to set up turrets!
How to get the best info, well not getting yourself killed!
The same principles of “fun” building resin mazes for warrior (that will be CASed/Mortared/OBed anyway) and gearing up (you will be warrior grabbed, or Queen screeched, or FFed anyway) can be applied to breaking shit planetside as xeno.
how does it not change anything? you just put out the change… the decision of whether or not to spread out! this is more of a issue than you may think, the locks are just far enough as to require T3s to spread out to get all of them.
also for all the locks to be taken out before contact with the marines will take a level of coordination to get done in a timely manner.
Because that’s the thing i don’t think anyone wants the locks to guaranteed to be still there. that would just be too marines tilled. what i am trying to go for is the locks to be able to be all cleared before the marines break the xeno front… but only if the xenos are on there A game. also for there to be a level of risk involved.
The reason i say only T3 should be able to destroy closed turrets is that, it puts effective a time limit on taking them out fully. meaning that the turrets if not in use can only be fully destroyed after the 20 min mark.
which do correct me if i am wrong but is the time at which the Drop ships can take off… i feel that would be a perfect amount of time window to facilitate breaking the main hold turrets and leting the marines to save the others… or at least catch a T3 off guard.
mate then you do you play the game… some real nihilistic view of gameplay loop going on here. i get the matters are not but temporary but it still does not remove the more stimulating nature of such “Chores”.
The decision to either break them, or not. You gain nothing for not breaking them. The exact same state as we are now, but only T3s can do it in that scenario, so survs have pretty much indestructable turrets unless they decide to turn them on, or it is past 20 minutes mark.
Or you lock survs from using them anyway. Or you make them weaker, not worth bothering.
Tunnels.
It requires the same ammount of coordination as with T1s breaking turrets currently.
Marines don’t drop as soon as they can. On average round its is atleast few minutes between T3s appearing and marines launching DS.
What stops T2s from standing close to lock on weeds and then evolving into T3?
I’m nihilistic 100% of the time, instead of being nihilistic when it only suits me, in this case the “chore” of breaking turrets on locks.
mate i get what you are trying to say but acting like list of “chores” you gave is the same, as my issue is ether disingenuous hyperbole or failing to see my point in its entirety.
near every “Chore” (except for maybe caping the smalls) all have a level of thought need to be put into it. But you are acting like the act itself has no value in of itself, because at the end of the day it will all be undone… by one means or the other… which is like of like comparing apples and oranges, they may be both fruit but they sure are not the same.
slashing the lock turrets has no more skill needed then remembering they exist, all the other “chores” you gave has a level of skill and knowhow built into it. they are not the same and are bad examples of “chores” as least as to being a counter argument against mine.
and see again you are proveing my point, that again is choice of spreading out that to work will take a level coordination, unlike how the locks are cleared now. no one asks if the locks are cleared runner and drones as they weed clear them as they go looking for loot or surv. There is almost never a need to coordinating taking out the locks.
i fully see the point that you are trying to make that change i have in mind will not fix the under laying issue i have. But i fully disagree as at least with the system i have in mind would at least allow the surv guaranteed shot at using the turrets at least in a busted state.
which was part of my goal in the first places even if the rest of my idea does not pan out.
Me Catzon thinks the lock turrets are too powerful while being not seen enough, i want to fix this by rebalancing the strength to survivability of the turrets.
N.H.C thinks the turrets are fine how they are, and changing them will only make the lock turrets worst to play with. The rest of it was just a back and forth about if its actually good or not how the turrets are right now.
Cabal thinks my idea for changes won’t accomplish what i want and will ultimately not add anything of value to the the gameplay.
TL;DR
Cat want change
N.H.C doesn’t think it needs change
Cabal doesn’t think my changes are meaningful
Well it’s fine that they’re not survivable. You can play around expected DPS and thus dying to it is an easily solvable death.
It’s annoying though that they are so hard to destroy when caded properly.
maybe lower the hp or make it disableable by an ability, idk
now that’s a thought, frankly that my very well deal with the overpower issue. if the xenos can make the turrets not work for lets say 10 sec will give time to slash the line and get out before it turns back on.