What is up with how lock turrets are implemented.

General Discussion
1

OK so i was playing round as xenos and i got melted by the lock turrets on the map Trijent dam. This was first in very long time that have seen the lock turrets be made used of.

The turrets are down right dumb… like crazy RPM with near unlimited ammo, heavy AP damage and fairly long range. You get one line over the turrets and there is jack all you can do about the hold, if survs are smart about it. The damage is so high that even T3 can’t push for more then one slash… and even then that is risky.

Now this is not me just salting, and wanting the turrets taken out. I in fact like the idea of having hard points of turrets on the map. My issue is how they implemented… like why are they so damn strong. i get having lots of AP to deal with high armor xenos but the RPM and damage makes it just to much.

Now the reasons i can see as to why they are so strong is the fact that you have to power and get to them before they are taken out roaming runners. but that is no fun ether… like its so rare to see the turrets being used and will only ever happen if the xenos are being really dumb and forgetting to take them out.

Its all around not fun, its busy work for the xenos that if not gotten done will bit them later big time. and for the surv it to hard to get working locks on time before you ether get swarmed or only to find the locks taken out. as for the marines the turrets may as well have never existed, for how rare it is for the turrets to live past the drop.

The thing is the game i think would benefit from more objective based gameplay… which the lock turrets are a great idea… at least in theory but now they are now they are too rare to get up and to strong when they do.

now how do i think they should work? the turrets need to be able to survive in some way, well keeping a way to take them out permanently. how this can be done is make it so that turrets can be made into weaker busted state when closed by any xeno caste but can only ever be destroyed permanently by T3 xenos.

That way the turrets can still be used by surv holds even if the runners have gotten to them.
The trade off is that the turrets need to be weaker over all, less RPM and damage. they still should keep full AP tho. the busted state should also be some thing that comes over time when the turrets are running after long time. i also think the busted stated should not stop them from shooting just lowering the RPM.

next is dealing with power issue… i think having P.A.C.M.A.N placed near or in the locks themselves that way the surv and keep the power going for long time if they know how to set up the gens to hook up to the APCs.

the Pacman also can be readily dealt with if the drones are smart when roaming and melting them as they pass.

Ok thank for come to my ted talk about lock turrets feel free to call me malding in the replies.

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You deal with the turret hold by spamming spitters and praetorians, that’s it

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Ah yes. Me doing 4 damage to the 200 health turret, which is repairable. Truly a solution.

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Man just died. Opinion ignored. Just kidding. Interesting idea. Never played Xeno so I would not know a good way to fix the problem.

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nah its boiler spam that you deal with turret holds, spitters and praetorians are not that good at dealing with the turrets.

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I wonder why it could be that xenos get punished for not not destroying something when they had the chance. Its almost like thats how punishment in games work.

Jokes aside, thats very basic game design. The term “punish” specificly coming from figthing games. Ima quote for this:
" Attacking someone when they are unable to block, making the damage guaranteed. Either by making the enemy wiff or by blocking."
You counter the enemys attack, and then get to punish them for letting that happen.
Xenos get punished by the lock turrets for letting them still be working once marines reach them.
Xenos wiffed, and marines used it that their defence is open to hit. Very simpel.

In figthing games this is overall very fast, and can be condenced to short figths.
But in longer games like CM, this plays in with opertunity costs.
The Tec tree is actually a perfect example of this concept.
Marines have to chose what they want to buy.
Either REQ budget, or CAS budget. If you buy one, you lose the opertunity to buy the other.
You have to chose what to pick.

And in this case, the choice is to either deal with the pod turrets early, or to do other stuff.
If you do deal with the turrets early, they wont be a problem later. But it might be that marines wont even go there. So it could be that it be better that you went to do the other stuff.
Etc, you get the point.

Its important to have that sort of stuff, it gives players agency in their actions. It gives their actions meaning. Everything they do, or wont do, will have a corresponding reaction.

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yes but my issue is that is way to simple to take out the the lock turrets, with little thought needed to be put in to it unlike the strategic taking out walls and windows or containers.

ether you take out the turrets or pay the price. but there is no thought to it just go runner and zoom around taking them out in few a slash’s.

this makes the turrets so rare… which at some point you may as well not have turrets on the map anyhow. like most of the paths you are going to take when forming the front line or scouting is going to pass by the locks.

so you just stop and take them out…its just busy work that you got to be dumb or really forgetful to not get done.

and that is just not fun i want to see the turrets be used more.

at least it is made that taking out the turrets when closed permanently takes T3 the places off the main path will have greater choice of going off to take down every thing or stay near the main path. and if the choose not to with the weaker turrets it will not be outright dumb move to not take them out.

i see your point but the costs are not really balanced that well with how the lock turrets are implemented right now. there is too great of risk not taking them out with too little of cost to do so… which means the turrets are only seen once a blue moon.

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Kinda incorrect.

sometimes u get punished because the enemy got lucky too (if synth spawns near generators, they can repair power quick enough to activate turrets and let survs get to a lock and start fortifying)

But tbh the turrets are like… not that bad because its kinda rare if u arent playing stupid. what actually sucks to fight on trijent is the elevator since that is one of the only holds in all of cm to have no real counter

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i mean you can make tunnel at ether end of the elevator to counter the fleeing surv but to be fair that pain to do.

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Exactly.
Thats a good thing. Belive me, if it where harder it be actually pretty shit.
And fun fact, making it harder would make it actual busy work too.
Currently its one of the least busy work like map hazzards for xenos.
Its “slash the turrets”. One task, very simpel.
Busy work are tasks used to pad out something. Having to deal with a map hazzard, aint that.
Its called dealing with one of the main parts of map variation.

I get your upset because you got murderd by those turrets.
But as you, yourself said, its rarley even a thing that they arent destroyd.
If it where actually a problem, you would see podlock turrets far more often.
Because the harder the task is, the harder is it to complet it. So the more likly it wouldnt be completed.
But its not. Its easy. Its punishment, for not doing the easy job. So xenos have to deal with the consequences of not dealing with the easy to deal with map hazzard.

Its like if you dont remove shrapnel. Its easy to do. Its not busy work. And you get punished really badly if you dont do it. Or if you dont splint your fracs. VERY easy to do, very bad if you dont do it.
Its basicly a slap saying “dont be dumb”. If your dumb and dont do the thing, you got only yourself to blame. Its not easy because it trys to make you do busy work, its easy so it isnt annoying to deal with.

Nah, the fact that there is random chance isnt what makes something unfair. The avalibel outcomes are what make it unfair. You can perfectly fine make something rng based but fair. Look at bullet spread.
Or just at Faust. A Guilty Gear character all about luck and random chance.
So if synth spawns migth be very unfair, the location of them migth be the actual problem. Not that they are random.

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I personally hate all the “Drone rushing” objectives xenoes have to do now a days. Kill all the turrets, deny them electricity, rush the ones going to the dropship, melt the flamer, do a 360 and melt the alcohol vendor.

Its all so tiresome, and it dosn’t add much fun to my experience. Like, I don’t even enjoy droning, but I have now 50 hours as drone simply due to drone rushing, because I HAVE to do it, otherwise survs either outright win, or get a huge advantage.

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and you fail to see my point, why am i ARGUING FOR MORE SURVIVABILITY if my issue is dying to the turrets… no i will state what my issue is again, its how the turrets are balanced between strength and survivability is very poor.

i say its busy work as it there is no true cost from the hive doing it but a great cost for not doing so. this makes its simply a matter of routine, that is very easily done that at some point you may as well not have it on the map to begin with.

like if you look at the paths that are made from the LZ to the best hive spots you are going to pass by the locks almost every time. you don’t have to go out of your way or do anything of note just stop do a few slashes and bam you have dealt with the hazard.

there is nothing that it really adds to the loop.

and how is this good? why even have the turrets then at all in the first place? you make it easy to deal with so as to make it not annoying. but in the process make the turrets kind of pointless to even be put on the map.

as they are ON the main high ways which makes them hard to miss. lets look at other maps they many of time have turrets and mats stowed away at odd spots, yes you can go out and make sure to melt them but they are not at the main path most the time so you got to go out of your way to find them. what’s more it TAKES a drone or some caste with acid to do this, unlike how you can just slash the turrets with any caste.

but it also goes the same for survs and many time they will not have time to grab the loot before the roaming runners find them.

its more of calculated issue, that calls for using your brain a bit… unlike doing few slash as you pass by… the turrets are just dull work… and i don’t see how a

is any good…

also that’s just looking at it from the xenos side… what about the surv or marines side of things? what’s the fun in having cool and useful set piece the is just destroyed in 2 secs… before you are even able to do anything about it.

and how about the marines they can’t make any plans to try to make use of the locks in anyway as is almost of forgone conclusion that the turrets are gone.

from the point of view of the humans the locks are a non objective… and that the point i am trying to make in all this the locks could be neat objective to get done. with how i envision it the locks can be make weaker but not out right cleared before T3 Evo.

which will mean that only the locks on the main hold will be for sure cleared in time before the drop happens. After that the xenos and the marines got to rush to clamed the rest of the locks before the other does. it makes it so it not just a out right game of meta rush the hive as fast as you can.

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The way you fix this is going queen and randomly assigning ppl to survhunt roundstart, based on their larva numbers,

(ie: 3 lowest larva numbers in hive are assigned to survhunt)

then banishing them if they don’t.

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Duke you’ve never playes xeno…?

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You don’t spit on the turrets you spit on the survivors :moyai:

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I already annswerd most of that twice by now.
So i go quick.

And that is bad how? You want that people need to go out of your way to deal with it?
And if you dont want that, why are you complaining about it being NOT out of the way if you dont want the only other option?

Its called a map hazzards.
Easy to deal with.
Map Hazzards.
You die to it if you dont bother to avoid it.
Map hazzards.
To see what players have pattern recognition.

You rigth. They dont plan for the Turrets, but they do for the locks. They are part of the most used routs. Because if you didnt know, All the podlocks are next to gens. Meaning generally marines will come across those.
If you like to see. Red are ALL 2 podlocks and yellow the only generators.

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So if you didnt know, now you know.

Conclusion:
If you die to the thing, you been pathed to to destroy, having every opertunity to get rid of it before, you are at fault.
Its called “Dealing with the consequences of your actions” Wich isnt a rule about games, but everything. You cant patch that out.

(It took so much strength to not rhyme at the hilarity of this salt, you would not belive)

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ok we clearly talking in circles, you are failing to see my point even tho i keep pointing it out. i get what you are say, but i don’t thing that is good game design.

again you are not understanding my point… my issue is that the turrets are so easy dealt with that they are never seen! that was my whole damn point, the implemented means that the lock turrets are only even seen once a blue moon and when they are seen they are Over powered.

also i don’t like hazzards that are just a “are you dumb” screening. i don’t get how hard this is to understand. i understand what your point is and stated at much.

i don’t much care for you treating this as if i am just salting. This is me not agreeing about the game design of this map. Still i get what you are saying, i just don’t agree as to your conclusions.

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OK i want to go over why i don’t think this good game design.

Ok lets set up a hypothetical round on the dam.

In this one of the locks are never cleared of turrets, lets say the side lock on the north to south road. the queen and the rest of the hive damn near wipe out the front line at the dam but fail to stop the dragging of the dead away, as the queen and hive was busy cap juggling.

but that gets dealt with swiftly and they are on the march again… only to come across a medic pillbox on the side of the road the queen thinks nothing of it and breaches the first line and rushs for screech and… gets melted by the turrets and because of the rushing in xenos rush the breach body blocking.

a number take a beating before they are able to get clear of the turrets… then the marines get up from the screech and mow down the weaken xenos wipeing out most of the hive.

the Xenos lose the round.

now let me ask you is that FUN… perhaps it is from marines side they pulled off clutch move with building that medic box! from the Xenos? they are salting hard in the chat some even rage quitting from dying to the turrets… they are also yelling at each other for not clearing the turrets call each other dumb for not geting it done.

do you see my point i am trying to make here? the point is such a

is nothing more than hooking up a Rat with electrodes and shocking them when ever they don’t do as they are supposed to! There is no true reward only a punishment, you may say the reward is not getting punish and have the satisfaction that you didn’t do the dumb.

But really it more like being conditioned to do some thing… there is nothing stimulating about it. at least with how i envisioned the lock turrets there will be more mental calculations and assessment of risk.

As a slow t3 you have to weight the risks of going out and clearing the locks, perhaps getting found alone or missing the main battle line weaking the frontline as you get it done.

is this perfect? no not really but at least its more stimulating than getting shocked like a rat in a cage.

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But ok, lets say for the sake of the argument your correct and its bad to punish players for fucking up.
Thing is, we have this in a lot of places in the game. Not just map design.

Now, this is one of the most prominent parts of CM that punish players for fucking up. It is very much the same at its core. Minimal effort. Harsh punishment for fucking up.
Its even less effort because your required to do literally nothing to not fuck up.
So even easier to deal with then the turrets.
Yet it deals a very harsh punishment, one that can potentially wipe the front.

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The question is. If this is ok, and the turrets arent. Where is the line drawn?

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bro how hard is this to understand i not against punishing the players, are you not reading what i am saying at all? i just don’t like the punishment to be a

kind of punishment. how is this hard to understand? how i want to turrets to work will still end up punishing the xenos if they don’t get the turrets down. how does that mean i want

my point is that how the turrets are now is just a

and not anything that is stimulating. that’s why i brought up the fact about the mats and turrets laying around waiting to be looted. you will be punished if you don’t go and melt them but here is the key thing is that there is more thought going into it then just pass and slash.

also the proportionality of the risk of not doing it is not as insane. a extra turret and hundreds of mats may be very very useful to the marines but does not mean you can’t deal with it if they do get it.

do know how most lock turrets holds are dealt with? they are just waited out most the time, as the surv most the time only got a battery or 2 meaning that the turrets will turn off if the surv are not on their A game. its not truly a weakspot of the turrets but an user error!

you are not reading what i am saying cleary as i stated my point time and time again. you are acting as if i just want to turrets gone which i clearly don’t. I WANT PUNISHMENT BUT NOT TO BE SHOCK AND CONDITIONED TO DO A BRAIN DEAD ACT!

That’s being part of my point the whole time slashing the turrets is such a easy thing to do and such punishment for not doing it, you have to be flatly idiotic to not slash the turrets. so if you get it done you don’t feel good about it… it just some thing you have been conditioned to do… its a brain dead act with no thought needed.

at least for the maps with other loot, it feels more rewarding to clear it out. you were smart, you made a sound call, you remembered were as the rest of the hive forgot.

you get this feeling as its not a simple call with out risk! if you are lone drone going out of your way to melt the loot, you risk being caught by surv also trying to get the loot. its race well being a gamble, as to if you really need to get to it right away!

but the lock turrets on the other hands? you FEEL NOTHING! its nothing but a rat being conditioned to slash. such kind of punishments are the worst kind and THAT has been my issue. its a bad pushishment as its not rewarding to take out in anyway but crushing to fail.

also a very bad example as shooting the rav is in fact a calculated risk and not a “dumb slap” , i know i play hog all the time its my favorite cast out of all the xenos. The bone shield does not negate damage… it gives you a large pool of shield points… shields if you have enough weight of fire you can break through.

Yes you can shoot down a hogs shield! i know its happen to me before, the shields while powerful its not get out jail free card.

Do you want to know some of the most common ways i died Hog starting out it was trusting my shields to soak… and for the marines to call my bluff, they mag dump me hard and didn’t run just tanking the shards and as i was going to flee i was partly low on HP as they fucking shoot down my shields! and so they were able to run me down before i got out!

so no that is not at all a good example of a “dumb slap”

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