Xeno Balance

General Discussion
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Hey I just wanted to throw some things that currently bother me with certain castes and strains of Xenos, particularly in terms of viability that I would really like to change in some way.

Lets start with Senti - It’s down right horrible at it’s current state it has very little usefulness at the current meta and can’t do anything right from backlining to frontlining can’t even support right with the slow spit and in general her impact is like non existent just go with other T1s and you’ll be better off

Next Prae - Base Prae is not a bad pick and has it’s certain usefulness to it for like holding off certain choke points and harassing marines in general and it is really safe to play since you wont be getting yourself in dangerous positions most of the time especially since you get shredded like paper if you go for a melee, also it’s good at sieging FOB but my flaw with it is that its a waste for a T3 slot for what it does when you have Boiler that is like 10 times as useful in most cases.

Oppressor - again fun to play but just not worth it yeah it can get some caps safely but considering that it is a T3 caste that if we are compering to let’s say Boiler or a Rav it really falls on its face plus Vanguard is just better in my opinion since it can fight on frontline really well get kills and caps at the same time with its fling ability.

Valk - I don’t play it so can’t tell much other than imo really situational and id rather have a competent crush who can tank and support in that aspect (crush could prob save you from sadar as well just by tanking the damage) and the heal with tantrum and slashes you usually dont get enough of those to make some big impact, retrieve is a good ability and in certain cases you can make clutch saves but still nothing special from valk honestly.

Vanguard - I think is where Prae shines at the moment since it has a role of a frontliner that can kill marines (not as good as rav obviously) and secure caps with a fling at the same time so it really has a decent role at the moment and its really fun to play it and is probably the best prae strain at the moment.

Dancer - We don’t talk about the dancer.

Lastly Crusher - I barely even see crushers lately which speaks of its importance, I really think her role as a crowd control tank needs to be reworked because base crusher is more of a snipe than anything that pops out stomps one guy and than runs back and that’s about it (yeah in good hands and tight space it can do some good but anything can be viable in prime hands I’m more considering an average player) and honestly Rav again with hedgehog strain is just way better at the same job.

Now I might be completely wrong on this take I’m not experienced like some of you guys are but I really feel like some castes/strains are at a really bad spot at the moment and need some love, would love to hear if I’m the only one who thinks this way

4 Likes
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Sentinel and dancer needs love. Other than that it is alright imo.

Prea always been more of a spec caste. Valk counters GL and Sadar so well, while vanguard and opressor while take a lot of practice, once learned is very strong and hard to kill.

Crusher is a very strong caste. Why is it not played often? Ravager is just beter or even best T3, not only you get explosive immunity, but fire as well, combined with faster movement speed.

Personally I think crusher is on par with ravager, just that hedgehog does a beter job like you said.

I don’t know why we still have dancer strain, without StrobClicker.exe it is impossible to kill someone cuz all abilities are point click, it could be fixed by turning its targeting abilities into tile click ones ( something like vanguard tail stab ability).

Sentinel is just caste for killing survs, thats it. Its worse than drone, it is just bad. There was time where meeting sentinel 1 v 1 was scary, now its just a walking target practice. Unless you camp some remote corner for a lone marine to come, you arent even geting anyone. Maybe changing sentinel spit to root or stun for 0.5 sec could change it, but i highly doubt it. Maybe add toxin damage to its spit. Imo it lacks offensive capabilities.

Overall, we need a Queen and minor hive rework, but i guess devs are more focused on getting multi-z and their pet projects like UPP, White xenos or the new flying thingy.

3 Likes
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Doesnt sentinel still have the permatackle combo?

I think overall sentinel has the best CC of all t1s but is the worst at applying it without others around to support it. And without any dps stats and mediocre speed and HORRIBLE hp and armor it does seem a little bit hyperfocused on this niche but also it is a t1, so it can somewhat reasonably be weak everywhere except its niche. Team slows are important in group fights and the thing senti does best and i think it has a very high skill ceiling to it, as -1 an enemy from a long distance is very effective although lacking the extra dps to go along it is limiting, its shotgun can stun to peel enemy off ally (if it can find a safe position) or -1, and its neuro slash can stun for a long time to gaurantee kill, cap, or -1 for ally.

In a vacuum, sentinel does not function outside of gauranteeing a cap every so often with scatterspit → neuro slash → tackle when ppl overextend heavily. But when considering teamwork, sentinel should have plenty of opportunity to function - it just has difficulty keeping up with their allies imo. But with skill and motivated teammates (which seem increasingly difficult to come by sometimes) it can provide unique, valuable support.

But if the value of its spits aren’t taken advantage of by allies it can easily be very boring and useless

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Dedicated stun caste in an environment where everybody hates stun-based combat, even thought it is a necessity. The best way to fix it is to rework it to work with the second best thing - speed. If you check sentinel strains idea thread you will find one of my ideas revolving around sticky resin. Spitting it to be precise. Sentinel would work like it does now, but instead of stun being the main goal, slowing down is, to the point of a stand-still(even xenos can’t move them), but marine still can shoot and do everything else but moving. Another minor ability-thing would be to spit into bags and pockets of marines who don’t have them full, filling them with gunk that needs a short wind-up to remove, otherwise every time you want to take something out of it, you also suffer the same wind-up. Thrid kind would be turning off light sources also requiring wind-up to turn on again.

All of that of course requiring few spits to achieve, that is annoying enough, but not unfun to fight.

Crusher just got his spot taken, that is all. Ravs (counting their abilities) are just tankier than crusher ever can be (and are not weak to fire) and selfheal, so what is the point of crusher anyway? Nothing can be done about it I think. You could make it even tankier, but all it would become… just a nuisance. Maybe make it 2x2 with powerloader controls, but buff it massively, seems like a good nieche for it.

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I think slowing spit would be fine if it could go through friendly xenos and was more accurate at range, not great, but fine for lone caps. If you want it to be able to frontline, I would consider adding some way to root marines. Maybe let it set resin vine traps or something. Rooting marines is kinda neccesary to secure caps otherwise they will kite you into their friends line of fire, and if they are rooted standing up, you can use them for cover

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opressor might not get kills but it is INFURIATING to fight as marine. As a marine player, I can say me and many other marines play significantly more defensively with it in play. It also hard counters m2c.

Aside from boilers its probably the most annoying t3 to fight. Also honestly its the one im the most scared of. Boiler dosnt directly hurt you, rav crusher and other prae variants are predictable, but opressor is butal. It hits hard, without warning, and if it lands your dead in the middle of the xenos at best and capped at worst. It dosnt have as much game impact directly but it is SCARY.

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I wanted to add one more thing about Valk Prae that might make it more useful and it’s to change a how her tail extinguish works and I think I saw someone mention this idea and it really seemed cool, basically change it to acid spray (maybe different color and even like 2 or 3 tile wide but shorter in range, but then again that might be too op honestly) that can extinguish multiple xenos, and help with extinguishing Pyro flames but can’t hurt marines at all (maybe add that it sticks to marines and make them slow? who knows just throwing ideas all though probably op). It would kinda make her all around specialist semi-counter and would extend her supporting capabilities without feeling too strong in my opinion , but then again it would need some testing for sure.

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this was my idea, yeah

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Okay, lemme give my overview of the xenos you just posted.

  • Sentinel

Literally one of the worst or best T1.

Why? Because the shotgun is extremely strong and the mini slowdown/stun is pretty good. But it relies in the player knowing what to do. People forget this is a team game and I prefer having 1 sentinel than 1 runner/defender when being T3. BECAUSE if the player is somewhat decent and knows that they are support, they can stun to secure caps or simply help marines get killed.

Because of this, it’s the worst T1 because people don’t know how to play it.

  • Base Prae

I call this… the nothing burger Prae. It spits. It break cades sometimes, it’s a glorified Spitter. And honestly, burn damage never does anything. It’s okay? But if you look at them, they just come out, spit someone and get shot to shit/stunned and dead. Nothing done. But hey, at least… it’s doing something.

  • Oppressor

A good strain, in theory. In theory, it leads to lots of caps, can’t be stunned pretty good at holding or pulling marines. In practice… most people suck at it. They don’t nothing. They miss their pull and just stand around body blocking. The tail sweep NEVER works or they always miss it. At least it’s somewhat tanky…

  • Valk

Support Prae is good. The stun that they can drop is pretty great to stop/disorient marines for a xeno follow up. It used to be better when it healed, but at least they can now charge with the rest of the xenos instead of standing in a corner and spitting… so I guess it’s fine.

  • Vanguard

The 4th ravager strain. You jump, you kill you break shit and you have a shield that if you keep skirmishing and never commit, will make you invincible. The fling/throw is massive and if you are supported by a runner or more xenos, it’s always a cap. The root version is a trap, don’t use it. Other than that, it’s pretty good but it’s very flimsy and weak without the shield.

  • Dancer

I don’t know why this shitty ass caste is in the game. A literal waste of a T3 Slot and you should be banned if you chose it.

  • Crusher in General

Honestly a waste of a good idea. IN THEORY, crusher is great. Crusher is tanky, crusher is good.

But it ain’t. Charger is too reliant on the map and the player experience. Of course a Prime Crusher can charge in 3 tiles, turn around, stun 6 marines, stomp one and walk away. But other than select 3 players… it’s useless and never does anything.

Base Crusher? It’s okay, but it’s too slow. It’s tanky, yes. But marines can always shoot more. You don’t do a lot of damage. You are too slow to retreat if you commit a mistake or if you are pushing marines. The AOE slash Is good, but… it almost feels you do no damage. Marines can just shoot at you. Set you in fire. You are literally distracting them… but to win xenos need to kill/capture.

This is why HEDGE ravager beats it. It’s faster, does more lasting damage with the shards, makes marines slow, forces them to pull the sharpnel and you are immune to fire. And you are invencible if you pull the ability and don’t overcommit.

Literally, it does everything crusher does, but better.

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Greetings fellow Xeno players! I have come here to talk about my favorite strain, Opressor!

When i started to play and main Opressor a kind soul of a prime Preatorian once told me “Opressor is a luxery strain”. But what does it mean? It means quite simply, if Xenos can hold their own and have enough cannonfooder (T1s), Opressor will help alot to take out nasty M2Cs, SGs, HPRs or any that are bodyblocked or too freced to escape fast enough.

You can fish Marines into Fire, into eggs, into death chokes even. But i believe Opressor shines when you snipe valueable Marines. Specs that frontline too much (Pyro), Medics that try to save a dead SG in a choke and so on.

You argue as if Opressor was just a weaker boiler, but it isnt. Opressor shines in angle camping death chokes and fishing for marines. One single combi and a Marine is in the middle of 4-8 Xenos tackling him. Worse if you camp behind doors with eggs at the sides, making escape impossible by youreself.

Oh, btw, Vanguard gets death stunnded by a mere HEDP. So, if you dash into marines or wasted it elsewhere and cant use it to escape a HEDP quickly, youre boned. Which is its hardest weakness. So i prefer not to dive as a zerker rav but skirmish more. Wait for lone marines and maul them with quick successio attack and a fling deeper into Xeno lines.

Opressor is fine where it is, its niche but fine, in my opinion

Ima be honest, 80% of Marines who are raging on Opressor die/capped because its their own fault. Its so common to see Marines keep advancing or not cadding up chokes where 5+ marines got abducted by me as Opressor and never returned. They just keep pushing the choke and keep loosing numbers.

The easy hardcounter are proper Cades. Cade up, and iam useless.

Opressor is rarely played as its kinda hard to get into its gameplay loop, but bald people tend to not perform as good as prime xeno XX-123.

Bald ravagers tend to block and die just as quickly as bald Opressors. Difference is, Opressors are more rare then Ravagers. Its not rare to see a Rav only Hive or a Rav dominant hive. I just think, Opressor is often then not unrewarding to play as. As rav, you kill quick and hard, as Opressor? You fish first and they walk away cause you messed up your fling and tail grab after abduction. Its a learning curve.

My final words before i drift into nothigness again… Opressor is fine where it is. Dont hate on my hb Opressor

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Prae is generally fine as is, as a support caste. Sentinel fucking sucks, and should be fully reworked. IMO I’d swap sentinel and spitter, and have the t1 of that line be a ranged acid damage dealer (with nerfs to make it appropriate for a t1) and buff sentinel to be great at capping, but a t2. There’s no middleground when it comes to capping. Either sentinel will suck at capping and never be used, or be good at capping and be the best t1 by far. Stuns are very powerful in this game.

Regardless of whether they’re swapped, senti needs a rework. Idrc what the final solution is, but the current state is bad.

Crusher though, imo, is a bigger issue. An entire t3 is absolutely useless. Crusher has no role, and anything it can do, can be done better by a different t3. IMO I’d probably look at crusher as being a fat, slow, tank. Ravs and praes have dashes, speed boosts, and all sorts of movement abilities. I’d look at a crusher strain that can slowly waddle into marines, decimate their cades, soak damage, and run out. Having a t3 that can deal with cades OTHER than a boiler would be REALLY nice. There’s probably better ideas, but regardless, crushers need a rework, and they need to find a role to fit in.

3 Likes
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Yeah… proper cades… How many cade nerfs are we on atm?

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back in the sulaco days, the game revolved around crushers more than probably anyone else, because they had a screen wide AOE stun when they stomped and it hurt when they stomped on you and they by default worked like the charger (and was really fun then, instead of being mostly just frustrating now)

sentinel used to be goated before perma nest, and was actually fun when it had the “level up how much you hate this marine in particular” skill challenge

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We can make as many threads on xeno balance as we want, but it’s pretty well established at this point that every other caste has been sacrificed for Ravager and the Queen.

Praetorians are versatile but don’t excel, and frankly aren’t as survivable as maybe a T3 of the frontliner evolution line should be. Crusher is much the same, as well as being so specialized to a single target sniper but doing so little damage for a T3 it’s frankly not worth it. All that survivability and damage has gone to Ravager, but if you tried to buff Prae and Crusher and DIDN’T nerf Ravager the marines would (rightly, for once) cry about how overpowered xenos have gotten.

And to be frank aside from the most cracked warrior players who actively ignore caps, no T2 and certainly no T1 will ever contribute significantly to the actual fighting beyond being a bullet sponge, especially when the queen gets off ovi for screecaps.

Ravager mains might hate to hear it but Rav DOES need a significant nerf, and the other frontliner T3s need a major buff. (Boiler is okay I think, it’s a long range artillery piece it doesn’t really need to be fast or bulky.) I think that with a more even stat spread in the T3s you solve one of the major issues with xeno balance. Things get a bit more screwy trying to rework the T1s and 2s, or help the hive shed its overreliance on the queen and her screeches in the mid-round fight.

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landing the root cleave for vanguard will guarantee a 125 damage combo btw, definitely not a write off

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You see Ravs do all the time, perhaps even more than other T3.

Is it because they are more common than other T3? Yes. But that doesn’t mean they are over buffed. Ravager is simply what xenos need and specialize, it’s the only somewhat tanky but at the same time somewhat damaging xeno. All other castes rely on support or the Marines doing an specific thing, but ravagers? They are generalists.

They can do whatever and they do it fine. In a sense that’s good. If ravager gets nerfed, no one will play it.

Also I am a firm believer that T1 and T2 are completely useless, with the EXCEPTION of warrior/jivelord. You never ever need a spitter, lurker, carrier or burrower. If all T2 was jivelord and warriors, xenos will always win.

Yeah, but once again you are being a glorified Dancer and you kill a marine next to all other marines that they can grab easily. You also have to dip out before you die. A fling to your lines and a kill/cap there is always better than that.

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I know I’m just bitching at the things I don’t like and I promise this is the last time, but the thing I find HELLA annoying while playing Vanguard is as Schwimmbadpommes mentioned stunned by HEDP which is wild because it’s not like Vanguard is exactly filling the role of Glass cannon and can do massive Berserker style squad wipes and because of it needs to be punished hardly (Most of the time Vanguard can get only few slashes and if lucky a fling until it needs to fuck off ASAP) and basically there is no way to play if safe and do what its supposed to do without mega risking every time you jump in (which you do even without HEDP fucking you up entirely).

What I’m saying is that it would be nice in my opinion to add a short explosion immunity (to HEDPS you would still get fucked by SADAR) after you do your dash thing so that you can theoretically play it more safely but still get punished if you decide to risk it and overextend. Again I really like reading your guys thoughts on this especially since most of you are way more experienced than me.

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Like you said, base Prea, when I’m on FOB duty, can usually crush my morale singlehandedly while I’m a Comtech. Marines already can’t react to things on screen, so I get chipped away weeping, begging for help of some kind of assistance, while me and my cades are both being pelted. I’m glad no one plays it anymore cause feels like it might be more annoying with all the multi-Z harassing options (wasnt paid to say this)