Add a "No, like, specifically CLs too" section to Marine Law.

MP is not an IC moderator. If it’s not against ML, you have nothing to do with it and you are not the one to judge.

I thought I was really clever by going through the entire list of server rules with every law that is covered under that rule added directly underneath it, and chose to redact that because just saying what I was going to do proves my point.

However, I would like to highlight that MPs doing their job has no purpose than to be an in-game bwoink and a-sleep so that other people playing their objectives can continue to do so unhindered: CIC giving orders without some asshole shouting over them in comms, CTs working without getting windows broken, and Neglect of Duty/Sedition being almost exclusively about making sure people play the same game they agreed to play by selecting their role that other players may have been gunning for.

Also I don’t know where the assumption that if CL deploys he’s not going to communicate comes from. You can deploy and communicate, you can roleplay with your escort, you can set up a W-Y tent, it wouldn’t be a wasted slot.

My issue isn’t with those ones, because - as I stated - they likely already know ML well enough to work within it and don’t need a HEY NERD, THESE APPLY TO YOU TOO clarifier, or are charismatic and inventive enough to get away with it regardless. Same reason that the best whitelisted characters are unlikely to catch player reports: I’ve never seen a report that goes “Hugh G Rection made the round more enjoyable for everyone involved in interesting and entertaining ways, though unfortunately broke a rule/law doing so.” I am worried that someone who spends the round telling everyone in earshot how important they are and explaining why they are above the law that applies to everyone from Nurse to Major is burning time that could have instead gone to someone far more deserving.

I do believe that allowing for the sorts who deploy and drop communications does lessen the role and set a bad example . . . hence the forum post.

Comparing a crucial role such as SL with a side role (CL) is also really strange, if you don’t see any difference then I don’t know what to say.

There are four times as many SLs as there are CLs, about double as many dedicated replacements to them, and an entire system to pick literally anybody else from their entire squad to substitute their place.

There is a single CL, with no junior executive, and no replacement or system for such.

While there’s of course the blatant difference in what they do, the issue is that you argue the importance of “crucial roles” (not the CL) who lack a special pass to act like jackasses and play against their role because the marines IC have to kiss their ass, or highlight that the CLs who don’t contribute as much should get such privileges without the burden of responsibility on their shoulders.

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The CL has no “superior officer” no matter how you spin it. Yes, they do have to obey Marine Law while in the AO and on a USCMC vessel, and they are posted on the Almayer to specifically work with the Command Staff (meaning the CO is “technically” their superior), but they don’t have to take orders from anyone beyond orders by MPs when dealing with crime (i.e. detaining the CL, or ordering the CL to surrender evidence).

If a CL is constantly berating everyone and being disruptive, then you charge them with Disorderly Conduct, not DASO.

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Aside from arresting him. As an XO, ASO, CE, or any other high ranking role, you can always hire some MTs to jump the liason in maints if he gets too annoying. MTs are like the crackheads of CM, pay them 20 bucks and a pack of ciggarettes, and they will fight god for you and also commit insane heists.

There is also another option wich i havent really seen people do, wich is to fax WY itself and tell them that the CL is being annoying -dont forget to fax them your evidence too-. Renember, WY is not a get out of jail card for liasons. If they fuck up big time or do insane stunts like couping the ship. WY would cut ties with them and have them fired.

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I’ll put it simple. People enjoy having a CL be in the grey area of ML. CL can do more bad guy gimmicks or be a weasel which is a core part of being a CL. Putting “my cause I don’t like how it is” rules on someone who’s meant to be a very soft antag and add the flavor of the CL from the movies for little to no reason is just bad thinking. Remember to always put server fun and not your own before.

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. . . they aren’t an antagonist, though, and that’s the same problem with the “grey area”. The purpose of every other antagonist on every other server is to add a twist to the job simulator formula:

Oh no, a shadowling is on the station!

  • Have engineers build lights around maintenance to remove its hiding spots.
  • Have security on patrol to kill it.
  • Have medical treating injuries and tumors.
  • Have the chaplain making holy water to cure enthrallment.
  • Have supply order equipment to defend against the threat.
  • Have hydroponics spread glowing mushrooms around.
  • Have science make gadgets to improve everyone’s efficiency at their task.
  • Have command sending communications out to the station.

If a CL expertly wove a plot that involved a network of bribes, blackmail, promises, and just enough confusion around the edges of Marine Law, nobody would have an issue with them because it would be fun for an abundance of people.

My issues come from

“Hey, you can’t do that. You will either get yourself killed or someone else killed doing it.”
“Nice try loser: grey area!
“Well, shit. I guess I’ll get back to you after a fax and and adminhelp, both of which include me standing still in an office or hallway for five minutes while you continue to do something that’s obviously against marine law . . . except you have a tie on.”

– because of this: ‘Murder’ charges under Marine Law include an addendum for if the person is revived later, crimes against humanity is a charge for the exact kind of thing shadowy CLs do in their back rooms, and so on.

While a grey area could be well-utilized by a talented and inventive Liaison, more often than not it is the social equivalent of a stun-based combat system where your strategy is dependent on someone else being helpless though little input of their own long enough for you to get away with your scheme.

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This becomes an issue with the smart players who know how to manipulate the law in grey areas.

You either back off or you go for the arrest.

To compare: It’s like arresting a particularly vocal Pfc. You know the kind. The guy who will destroy some windows, insult you to your face twenty times, insult officers, and then play the victim and “Where’s the proof huh!” card (even when you have proof or saw a action in person or have witnesses). At a certain point you either play the wimpy, non-committed MP and release them (despite overwhelming certainty of guilt) or you arrest them.

That’s part of being an MP. Confidence in your application of ML. If you aren’t confident in standing your ground in the event the charge is contested, don’t apply it.

Doesn’t mean you need evidence every single time (sometimes it’s physically impossible or intervenes in handling the case itself*), but it does mean (just like how a CO handles BE rules) you should be able to justify yourself IC and OOCly.

*Ex: You really going to go grab every single bit of evidence…all while the victim is bleeding out and the perp is waiting to be brigged? No. 99% of the time a MP walks into a violent crime with a clear aggressor in an active violent incident (such as a active shooting), they intervene and arrest the aggressor then run off to brig. Witnesses are useful but not always needed nor is evidence. They might gather evidence later - after the person is put in brig- but the minute they arrest someone the clock is on to do it in a reasonably timely fashion. (What could be considered and timely can even change depending on situation, but the point remains. MPs don’t tend to hang around with arrested individuals outside of brig. Moving them occurs quickly)

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The server already removed the CL’s largest leverage point shipside with the deletion of research paper generation - now you want ML to be even stricter on a role with literally 0 all skills save for easy (and expected) fax machine use (which relies entirely on mod response)?

Tell me a funny joke, a REALLY funny joke, mister Arty

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Skill issue.

No, like, really: There’s IOs for people who want to be secret agents, survivor for people who want to be hard-edge civilian vigilantes, and CLs for people who signed-on to play the paperwork goblin.

This is a role that is entrenched into SS13’s DNA: You can find it on /TG/, Yog, Paradise, Skyrat, and two on Bay. Even on servers were NanoTrasen is the dominant corporation in the galaxy, on an entirely NanoTrasen-owned station, with a staff entirely-staffed by NanoTrasen employees: You aren’t special. There are not any clauses (that I could find, and I’ve played on some of these servers as long as CM) that give them any special privileges or places them in a special, snowflake offshoot of the chain of command that makes them untouchable.

Not a lot of people play these roles, and not a lot of people nail them. Yet, they exist for those that do and give them all the tools they need to thrive. Hell: a lot of the other community’s even give great advice that could be used to play your CL better!

I understand that some people feel like they should be allowed to play a role as disruptively and obnoxiously as possible and still have an excuse to get away with it, PWNRA, but I feel that any of those loopholes that disempower other players so that you can be the main character have every right to be closed.

I’m a woman, by the way, not a “mister”: I’d know a thing or two about having to jump through a bunch of hoops and piles of paperwork in order to still be ignored and disrespected. Some people just don’t have the strength of will to do it, and that is okay. However, saying that there’s no room for fun or its too difficult to be rewarding in the end is laughable.

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Good point. Unfortunately, it depends if mods are on with the fax machine.

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He is directly the subordinate to the CO it says so

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I would not consider liaisons “paperwork goblins”.

Solely relying on your fax machine can sometimes yield no results, even if you put in the effort. Sometimes admins are tied up, sometimes they just don’t notice, and sometimes they just don’t care/don’t think your faxes need to be replied to.

If the liaison was solely a “paperwork” role, then why do they have a containment cell with their own animal cubes? Why do they have a brief case that can spit out thousands of dollars, drugs, and encryption keys? If this was true, then the above mentioned needs to be removed.

You can have a great time as a liaison without writing a single fax. To then relegate the liaison to only faxing and observing would be ignoring their vast arsenal of bargaining tools.

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Correct take.

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That’s why I mentioned all the other things they could do earlier, and gave examples from other servers that ranged from roles that are there to put on a good face for centcomm and make sure that all of their resources are being put to good use, or ones that exist to help entertain and enrich people’s rounds, or to try and act as the voice of reason and keep the operation on the right track.

I didn’t mean “paperwork goblin” derogatively, and have found a lot of fun in these roles. Incompletely agree with you on the range of things the CL can do and the tools they have to accomplish their schemes, but simply believe that needing their own confusing niche within the server ecosystem that emboldens them to do things that would get anybody else arrested and firmly state they are allowed to do so because they’re special is negative, and bad for the game.

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You’ve tried spinning this argument after people explained it the CL falls under the CO, and is left a little grey in ML on purpose. You’re extremely passive aggressive as well when trying to make your points, and some of the things you have done just to win whatever this argument is disgust me as a community member.

I understand that some people feel like they should be allowed to play a role as disruptively and obnoxiously as possible and still have an excuse to get away with it , PWNRA, but I feel that any of those loopholes that disempower other players so that you can be the main character have every right to be closed.

What started off as a game change suggestion has turned into dragging someone else’s name down after a PR and mentioning it in a degrading way. I don’t know why you couldn’t just say, “As per this PR”. No instead you had to insult a player who already got their punishment.

This is a role that is entrenched into SS13’s DNA: You can find it on /TG/, Yog, Paradise, Skyrat, and two on Bay. Even on servers were NanoTrasen is the dominant corporation in the galaxy, on an entirely NanoTrasen-owned station, with a staff entirely-staffed by NanoTrasen employees: You aren’t special. There are not any clauses (that I could find, and I’ve played on some of these servers as long as CM) that give them any special privileges or places them in a special, snowflake offshoot of the chain of command that makes them untouchable.

CM is not TG, Yog, Paradise, especially not skyrat, and not bay. I know cause I’ve played on all of them except skyrat. Most CM players have. Yes CM is ss13, but each server has it’s own unique things and CM is unique in its own. It has not and should not follow the trends set by other servers. Just cause youlike how other servers do things, doesn’t mean CM should change entirely for you

I’m a woman, by the way, not a “mister”: I’d know a thing or two about having to jump through a bunch of hoops and piles of paperwork in order to still be ignored and disrespected. Some people just don’t have the strength of will to do it, and that is okay. However, saying that there’s no room for fun or its too difficult to be rewarding in the end is laughable.

I’m sorry if you had to handle this degrading behavior, but what this has to do with a video game of a made-up universe is beyond me. Stick to CM when trying to argue a point, if this happens in CM then you should report it.

Seriously get a grip. Most ideas, if not all, you present do not align with CM at all. They’re all ideas of “my fun” not the servers. The disconnect you have is at a laughable level at this point. People try to explain it to you very nice, yet you have to respond to everyone refusing to accept anyone else’s point. This isn’t a onetime thing, most of your idea post are like this with you being extremely passive aggressive, talking down to people like they’re idiots for not “understanding” your point, yet you’ll deny it and attempt to play the victim.

I love the community and most people in it, that’s why it leaves a sour taste in my mouth when I see post like this that do nothing but bait people into arguments.

I’ll be contacting staff about your behavior cause you need to chill out and learn to make an argument the proper way.

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I will admit that the thread is getting repetitious, but it really is just a back-and-forth of

  • “The CL doesn’t need to follow this part of marine law.”
  • [Evidence clearly stating that they do]

or

  • “The CL is more fun when played as an antagonist to other players, or with abusable powers that makes their reach each round completely up to how far the CL will push it, how far the MP will believe it, and which way online staff lean when asked for clarification.”
  • [Evidence that is either banned by server rules, the player has had fun at other’s expense before, or the majority of the SS13 community existing fine without abusable loopholes or specific rules against them]

I have no idea why you’re thinking that I’m trying to make this about me me me when the entirety of this thread has been it’s own best example of "wow this is inconsistent and could lead to a ton of disagreements and headaches without some incredibly thin surface clarification that doesn’t restrict anything about the CL besides preventing them from - call it what it is - abusing a gap in the rules to get away with breaking marine law . . . which means they were already guilty of doing something that inconvenienced another player and security was trying to do their jobs.

I can give you credit for your thoughtful and valuable comments on Commander applications: but when it comes to feeling victimized because someone criticized you for playing a role in a way meant to come at other player’s expense and then trying to make a performative monologue at my less-than-utterly-respectful responses to people providing nothing of substance or insulting me? I can’t say I’m impressed that you managed to write so much without actually write so much without absorbing any of my or other’s arguments.

The CL is a fun role.
The CO has special exceptions under the law due to the work it took to get that role and their importance to the mission.
The CL is not that important, and having their own unique exceptions only makes it easier for them to make the round less enjoyable for other players.
There is no legal grey area for the CL, their coverage under marine law is just spread over too many pages whereas a single page would make things easier for everyone to work with eachother.

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Thanks chief. I wouldn’t have been able to articulate it this way other than a random Roflman beating a WL-hunter CE and MTs has nothing to do with CLs.

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I mean, the role wiki already says that ML applies to them: Corporate Liaison - CM-SS13

Not sure why we need to add a doubling down on that. The only real issues have been MPs who seem to think that anyone who isn’t a department head is below them in the rank structure and thus DASO bait.

More importantly, military structures are not simply linear top to bottom trees of authority. There are attaches and support groups that are added to a given element for specific purposes. Not every USCM company gets its own personal hospital compliment, as an example. More to the point: The CL is an attache from W-Y, assigned due to the relevance of The Company’s interests on the planet that the CL is then in charge of overseeing and reporting. They are a guest, but not in the rank structure of the USCM, meaning most rank based laws aren’t going to apply to them, exception obviously for their direct report: the CO.

Or to sum it up: rank structure related ML can’t really apply to them as they do not have rank, but the remaining 90% of ML applies as expected. Rank structure related ML operates off of one major facet: superiors. The CL’s only superior on the ship (because of his attache assignment) is the CO.

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I mean, the role wiki already says that ML applies to them: Corporate Liaison - CM-SS13
Not sure why we need to add a doubling down on that.

I feel it is self-evident from what has been seen in the thread calling for exceptions, grey areas, or outright contradictions as Marine Law is both

  1. An in-universe source (I can’t point to the Liaison’s job page and cite the ‘no self-antagging’ rule to someone, I can grab a literal red book prop and throw it at them).
  2. It would concentrate information into fewer sources (I may otherwise have to cite a law, and then the SOP clause that defines civilians, and then potentially even the CL’s page itself. If not myself, someone could misunderstand the rules out of laziness, only skimming, or confusion).
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Sounds like a CL should try to keep on the aCO/CO’s good side before doing anything that is in a grey zone ML wise.

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Mark as IC issue.

ML Might apply to them, but they’re deliberately not part of the CoC, nor are they a marine.
It’s a deliberate grey area.

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