In the end, nothing really matters. Xenobros will still get nuked, the Scout will still get instacapped, and people will still metagame with twitch. The truth is, CM never changes. Runner players still complain about OT claymores, the forums get deader everyday, and admins overstep. Theres always a asshole MP, and the CO is always incompetent. Nothing ever happens. ASS changes nothing other than making the squad layout a bit more ASS, but it wouldnt be CM if everything wasnt fucking trash and garbage. God bless CM. Have a CM Day
4 Likes
I’ve been mulling over the responses here combined with my own experiences. I would say most people, including myself, agree with some of the A.S.S changes. Personally, I like how there is now a squad preference list. I also think that the bravo spec and SG being placed in a different squad by default is probably for the best, given that they would almost universally be assigned to a front fireteam. I think where most people disagree with A.S.S is the changes to Charlie. Here are my problems with A.S.S, and how I would change it.
As a preliminary matter, I think A.S.S represents an overall good change in direction for the game. Fireteams have always been somewhat of a clunky, though still useful, feature. Having Kilo and the support squads where people opt in to a fire team I feel like works much better. However, these support squads have led to a lot of problems.
- The support squads tend to be woefully anemic. I often end up having to group squads together, e.g. Charlie and Kilo or Bravo and Oscar just to set up comms or guard FOB.
- Charlie has been absolutely gutted. It feels like a real shame that one of the OG squads is now no longer a main force in the game.
- Bravo has also taken a hit. With fewer marines in the squad, there are fewer marines to build the FOB or who stay behind to defend to build the FOB.
- Because of the above points, experienced queens will often circumvent the front entirely, opting instead to flank and hit the FOB.
I would thus propose the following changes to A.S.S:
- Remove the support squads except Kilo
- Alpha, Charlie, Delta, and Kilo all have a specialist and SG.
- Bravo and Kilo form the “Support Operations Platoon” and need to be specially opted in to. Charlie is part of the Assault platoon but is opt-in only.
- (If possible code wise) make Kilo an locked squad, requiring at least 30 hours in a squad role.
- Give Bravo vending machines a discount to the engineering pamphlet and +1 to its comtech slots in order to better fit into the FOB Machine role.
This accomplishes the goals of A.S.S while maintaining a lot of the original CM-13 Squad Cultures while also bringing some new ways to play the game, both for Marines and CIC.
For starters, these changes would remove the handicap on Charlie, returning them to a fully functional squad as is proper for an OG squad. However, Charlie would be opt-in only, meaning people would have to actively chose Charlie. The hope here is Marines who actively chose to be in Charlie would put more effort into roleplay and game play, making them a step up from Alpha and Delta. This change would also keep Kilo, retaining the High Skill small squad play that people really seem to enjoy from ASS. Kilo would be the “cool squad” to the game, encouraging new players to come back to the game to unlock the squad.
Bravo would also be rebalanced to focus on its FOB mission better, allowing for better FOB construction and the ability in higher pops to send fireteams to help defend comms. I would be open to welcoming an Oscar squad in highpop which would act as a Kilo overflow.
In sum: Bring Charlie Back, Upgrade Kilo, and Retool Bravo.
1 Like
I dont even know if SLs are even getting fucking noted nowadays for not following orders.
Weeks ago i was Alpha SL and Delta/Alpha was put into ETA duty and Delta fucked off to bars Got wiped with some ASS s. Dont know if the SL got noted at all.
Every problem of not “being cohesive and not serious” literally stems at people trying to metagame by pushing lambda/SE caves/Hive meta location instead of listening to orders.
i would not say im not guilty of that shit too but if we really want people to be “serious/cohesive” and relies on tactics then we should raise the RP standards again. And you would need to make xenos and marines have staying power to do tactical stuff in which they dont die/capped instantly so that they stop minmaxing marine/xeno majors
Even xeno mains are guilty of this shit too. Have you seen chance claim hive core meta location which is literally fucking impenetrable beause its surrounded by heavy reinforced walls except for the north? Everyone will always fucking minmax just to win.
As i said ASS is good for now but when mods/staff stop giving a flying fuck about ASS upholding RP/Cohesiveness. Im sure that months later CIC will put them into frontline duty with delta/alpha. Everyone stops giving a fuck about RP (unless CIC cant give them orders for the whole round and just says “Do whatever you want”)
and as @Nunk said it is really just inevitable for all squads to congregate once prime queen 600+ hours logs in and starts spamming queen screech. Squads dont matter anymore. When the other faction is minmaxing then the marines try to minmax too.
Maybe if we remove queen scree + lessen FF damage, increase xeno/marine durability then marines/xenos might stop trying too hard to win. But who fucking knows.
Im still gonna play the game anyways
CM is over. Kilo this, Charlie that, you morons. Why the fuck would you follow the squadleader? What has happened to CM? Go run off to the front. You think you’re useful following that sack of shit onto a flank? Sorry bud. What you’re actually doing is running to your death. Flanks are not fucking useful at all, do not follow them. Delta fucking off to Bar was a trooper issue. Use the SL marker as a guide, not the fucking holy bible. Dumbasses these days smh
for that matter the only tactic that matters is grouping up at a choke point and shooting into it until the hive suicides. Unless your squadleader is John Competent. By the way if you have a super patriotic squadleader follow him to the depths of hell, you will die, and it will be fun. Funner than dying to queen scree on the flanks.
6 Likes
I feel like people forget why you come with a meta strategy. You do it every time because statistically you are more likely to win. Not every time but on average the ungaball works more often than not. Flanks are not useless. But they are much more likely to fail. That one time when it worked is what keeps you throwing rounds chasing that same experience.
RP or not, maybe I just want to be able to play the round instead of getting capped 2 minutes after deployment. You can have the big L on your sprite but that dont mean im following your dumbass especially if im on my 1 in 100 spec roll.
Side notes:
Calling the system ASS and expecting people to take it seriously - if you dont see the problem here - god help you.
The majority of people playing want to PvP and win and not RP - Source: See Alpha, Delta squad sizes compared to charlie and bravo
The system is working correctly and living up to its name.
This also happened before kilo was added. If you get knowledgeable players you will get good results. The squad size or its role have nothing to do with it. Hint: take one food item from the character loadout so you are not slowed for 500 hours in prep.(who the fuck thought removing food from prep was a good idea??)
3 Likes
well, it’s been a while since ive played and i havent experienced ASS firsthand, but the thing to understand about flanks is you require a critical mass, and flanks are incredibly niche. Do not fucking flank west when the front is east, because then the front turns west and suddenly you are pushing into a queen scree. genius.
2 Likes
Just because something is the meta (most effective tactic available) does not mean it is the most beneficial path. In CM’s case, the murderball meta exists because it’s the easiest way to group marines, and marines simply benefit from teamwork to an absurd degree alongside the more marines in an area the less being bad matters (because you are closer to support, and xeno offensive struggles to break through larger groups as opposed to smaller groups). Most maps support murderball meta by the pre-cave section, which allows fluid movement of a large number of marines through a variety of marine-favored chokepoints, and marines naturally spread out to try and find open fronts. But once space becomes an issue and terrain become xeno-favored (ie: caves) the inefficiency of murderball becomes very apparent and impactful, as it spreads out and breaks up into a mostly defensive murderball, with no consistent leadership, organization, or opportunity to push. Any single-angled attack would simply get shot down from multiple angles or cramped at a chokepoint as the tactic is too simple and disorganized to provide strength in these situations consistently. Murderball gives a valuable job to everyone and puts them in one place to do it - it’s because marines are so disorganized and inconsistent that it’s the best method, but once times get tough people stop doing their jobs
But this changes given leadership’s tools are improved (organization) and player skill (consistency) is improved.
There is a maximum group size before murderballs become inefficient - as space constrictions limit the output of all available resources. You may have as little as 5%-10% marines active at a time on a murderball front with 100 pop, with the rest being injured or otherwise useless due to poor skill or leadership or a perceived lack of purpose in their duties. So from a tactical perspective, efficient resource control multiplies marine output.
This is in contrast to breaking off groups of solo or duo players (especially outside of backline) - this is inefficient because they lack support and resources - and makes them much weaker then they could be, as support/teamwork multiplies an individual marine’s output thus making their contribution much greater and consistent. So there is a minimum group size before it becomes inefficient, from a tactical perspective.
Finding this sweet spot is just not attempted because murderball is so easy in the pre-cave section. And more importantly, the game encourages this type of play - as it’s difficult to get a hundred people on the same page about anything without tools to do so.
Alongside this, another important contributor to the minimum efficiency point is injuries which hamper marines and force the cycling of a murderball’s vanguard to remain efficient. This frequently fails because people just don’t know what to do - it just takes a couple skilled players at the front to get injured to make 5 unskilled players take their place, who do nothing to help others and more or less lose all pushing progress immediately or unfortunately get whittled away, injured themselves, or etc. Players just don’t realize how important it is to stand strong in good positions when times are tough because the situation will frequently improve if they do - consistent support matters a lot. But so does consistent assault - when people don’t push when they need to, it becomes impossible to gain ground or make an offensive on the Hive, the murderball becomes wildly inefficient at that point as it loses much more then it gains due to terrible organization and teamwork. Not only must you be ready to defend, you must be ready to sacrifice and hope others would do the same for you (but when they fail to do so, murderball fails)
Assault can be slow or fast, but what matters more is the impact on resources long-term. If it’s inconsistent, say, overall marines lose much more then they win, a larger group size matters because it lets them recover - not because it directly adds offensive pressure at an inefficient rate, but because it prevents the xenos from utilizing their offensive pressure. If it’s consistent, this matters much less. A murderball is not more murdery then a spread out front, but it is more efficient and consistent at supporting itself so it sustains itself more when meeting tougher battles.
without murderball you won’t have the resources to sustain the push - grab bodies cycle and injury - fob cycle that characterizes most frontline marine gameplay. You may have a greater number of marines active in the assault, but this means you are taking marines out of support and cycling roles to do so.
But to what degree could small, organized groups aid in pre-cave, and more importantly, post-cave fighting? This is very common with warrior stacks, and small groups of good players, who through simply being together and being much more consistent then the average marine can easily win games on their own and actually take tangible useage of the advantage that small groups provide. Even average marines who simply put the effort in to help groups like this massively increase their output relative to a vast majority of players. In the backline, small groups are the most consistent and efficient way to deal with threats - on both sides. Without organization and teamwork getting kills consistently is almost impossible for a vast majority of marine players.
Further, I doubt that with the current way the game is played, we are even approaching what we could feasibly output by dividing groups to output more - 5% to 10% is an arbitrary value but if true, it could easily become 20%, or 30%, and completely change the games balance entirely. This flippiness is part of why rounds progress in strange, unexpected ways - the amount of people on the front creates a bottleneck effect where the output is heavily dependent on the few for success and thus much more inconsistent based on factors outside of feasible control such as individual player skill (player rng). A tactic just simply isn’t good unless it minimizes this randomness or chance for failure.
put any two players together who work together well, they become a machine of death and destruction, because teamwork is OP when done well. Put any two players together on the frontline, they will FF eachother, leave their bodies, steal their guns, or sit around with a blank expression as others are capped, murdered, etc.
Another thing to note - splitting up a murderball across fronts becomes much more efficient in cramped areas, as the enemy is also limited by space in their output of pressure, so they must respond in kind or face wasted resources. As there is less enemies, it requires less support, and thus a greater surface area of marineness which leads to flanks and other benefits if the enemy fails to respond. If they respond, they are still endangered by this increase in overall output.
So I think if, support squads fail frequently with their starting numbers, just group 2 of them together and send them on together missions (so that they maintain some of the advantages of meeting the minimum group size vs larger groups), and the 3rd one can be used for smaller, riskier missions or cramped spaces. I don’t know if this completely solves the murderball’s issues but since theres leadership tools it’s already 9 million times more efficient at keeping together and utilizing resources. Even if the point of support squads fails by grouping literally ALL 3 support squads together, the rules mandate that they have to follow orders basically means that’s the new murderball method and will maybe just win more games more often then not. This depends on if it becomes better to do small squads (players get better or small squads get buffed) or big squads (players stay ass) because the game encourages big squads with better support when players are ass. It could also become perceived as a really evil thing to murderball the support squads depending on what the culture or rules becomes in assigning them orders, or alternatively the amount of power given to them which allows them to maintain consistency despite their small size.
Or alternatively, use the support squads in conjunction with the primary squads. They should most likely be helping them using their organization to increase their output - with consideration to position relative to the front and tactical advantage it provides. An example is sending support squads to go die in a chokepoint, then sending the primary squad to pick up the bodies.
I may have gone too evil with this post but i will not delete it because i think it provides a lot of brainstorming and stuff
3 Likes
Well, it’s a simple question of how would you secure the comms in the A.S.S. era? Like, I as a CO would always put Alpha\Delta, to avoid weakening the already weak Support squads. But lets say that’s not an option. Oscar probably won’t exist. Bravo may not have the manpower. And Kilo won’t be put on the comms for the reason of being probably the best pound-for-pound squad on the virtue of being basically a metagang. You as a commander just don’t want to waste your best resources on throwaway tasks. Hence the favoritism towards Kilo. Thus that pretty much leaves Charlie, right? As for it not happening - well, I’ve spent an entire round like that two days ago. And I’ve observed that happen in other rounds too.
That’s literally something that all IRL armies do as a matter of the SOP when setting up sentry posts. And something that any advanced Bravo SL discovers pretty quickly. For the same reason you don’t want Kilo to do comms, you don’t want your best men(those who are actually willing to do sentry duty) to be always stuck on the posts.
As for the CIC side, you’re right in that it’s almost never done. But the reason is that combat squads may simply not have enough cohesion for such a rotation by the time it’s needed. So the more common thing is Bravo all in, which I do pretty often(and lose the round to the queen doing the FOB rush at the exact same time 
). Plus now there are other priority issues for command to deal with, like the comms scrambling, so as much as I want to do squad rotations and ad-hoc unit merging, I just realistically don’t get the time to do it.
You’re talking to one of those people. And as I said it all comes down to the busywork to action ratio.
I usually keep a close eye on the cohesion of the squads I’m in(or SO). For example Bravo, when led properly, sometimes had a scary high cohesion. Like we’re talking 70-80% on 20+ people. And I’m literally running out of fireteams, to the point that I kept meaning to code in FT4. And when I say splint in half, what I meant is each squad having a fireteam doing some boring task in addition to frontlining(FOB, comms, Hydro). Obviously you don’t want to split squads for no real reason.
You know that quite a few advanced players go to req every round and grab other squad keys? Just so that they would have the access to the information. Even Bravo alone would often have that kind of a radio chatter where all the big developments get called out before the CIC does.
I would be more sympathetic to this argument in any other debate than this. Because, no, the old system actually accounts for that better. Like lets say I’ve rolled a Charlie rifleman. Lets say Charlie is 12 men and the trash ratio is 30%. That’s a bit generous, but that happens. So 1/3 is gonna ignore the orders completely. Then Charlie gets comms duty. So SL splits off a fireteam consisting of techs a PVT and me. It sucks, because the comms duty is boring, but I know that when I roll Charlie the next time, my chances of being stuck at the comms are not that bad, because of the squad size. And the SL still has 4-5 people to work with, so it can operate as exactly that support squad on the front. Then lets factor in the attrition and we can say that Charlie probably won’t be efficient for long there.
But what if Charlie is an A.S.S. squad in this scenario? I think everyone and their cat already made that point that those squads are screwed if they get even a couple of low cohesion players.
And “but Kilo” is not really an argument, because veteran high cohesion players are a real minority in CM. Lets say there are 15 of them on an average round. Now lets take 8 and put into one squad. Sure that squad’s gonna probably perform really well. But that also means that other squads are gonna be really lacking in veterans. And what if we we take the remaining 7 vets and put them in Oscar too? Well, I had a couple of CO rounds like that - where we would setup a good flanking manuever with the support squads, but then the frontline would just fall too quickly, because A+D are struggling holding the entire hive alone and then command has to abort the flank and throw the support squads into the frontline, due to the lack of any other realistic options.
2 Likes
To be fair.. we murderball IRL due to the ease of command + output of firepower + skill considerations
What would you say is the paper-theoretical best way to attack caves?
IMO the problem with pushing is less the tactic and more that no one wants to be the guy lunged by a Woy and capped or round-ended moreso than any strategy.
This is very true, especially when you get newer players in Bravo, except IMHO there’s no real reason to rotate another squad in due to how impenetrable FOB can be and how quick Marines can run back.
Meant to reply to this earlier but.. I’ve been left on this for an entire round, with repeated confirmation. I ended up walking around patrolling the backline so I got lucky I wasn’t ahelped but it definitely happens (maybe by newer XOs?)
The problem used to be that alt-clicking your tracker is hidden from you in-game for some reason unless someone tells you. Fireteams work somewhat fine now, the main problem is that 70-80% of pop don’t read announcements (most callouts are relayed in person for them to be heard) because it’s hidden in the same box as:
“X bandages Y’s head”
“X bandages Y’s left leg”
“X bandages Y’s left arm”
“X bandages Y’s left foot”
“X bandages Y’s left hand”
… constantly spamming in chat - SL announcements (TGMC) solve this and would make fireteams perfectly workable.
Bump
2 Likes
This is an issue of pressure. Map pressure is just as valuable anywhere on the map given it moves an enemy to its position and keeps them from doing bad things - that’s not why Murderball is inefficient but it’s what could be gained if murderball wasn’t the main strategy. A warrior stopping you is an example where single-point pressure fails as a warrior is only 1 xeno and you are many marines, the problem is the amount of people on the front.
Murderball localizes a majority of its pressure at its point, but only a minority of marines are at this point at any given time. Further, the organization and teamwork of these marines tends to be really shit - if it is pressured enough to split, it tends to become impossible to reattach even if the main line needs support
If the number of marines actively shooting is 5% to 10%, this is massively inefficient, and could be improved by splitting the group - because if the problem is space constriction, in any space you could sustain a front of the same amount of people given enough resources. For example, if group 1 with 50 people has 5 people at the front, split it in two, now you have two groups of 25 with 5 people at the front… of both! Now you have double the firepower overall, and the xenos will struggle to a much greater degree, and you have more then enough marines especially to support the front in cramped spaces where the enemy cant sustain a large front against you and you need less marines in order to cycle fresh, un-injured marines to the tip of the spear efficiently.
This is why I think support squads are valuable - it provides a firm organizational tool for command to use on the Frontline, in order to increase output, teamwork, and tactical flexibility of marines greatly. A marine who actively works with their team is multiplied in their output, and thus a much more valuable offensive, or even supportive resource then a marine who doesn’t.
Another thing you are saying is inconsistency - this is true due to lack of organization and skill. A larger group is less inconsistent at support because theres just more heads to make the smart decision with so on average 1 of 25 people will pick up the body or maybe be around to shoot the warrior. But that doesn’t mean a smaller group couldn’t be more efficient if divided in a way that isn’t also, disorganized and inefficient.
This is also all completely invalidated when the queen exists because the queen can leverage much greater group sizes and create much greater pressure then marines in smaller areas then is normal because of the OP screech. Although you can reply to queen rotations with numbers of marines and strike at weaksides to push still.
Vs queen is when it makes most sense to maximize supportive elements as it prevents the chance of complete collapse imo - or alternatively to counter rotate, run from, or otherwise try to make useless due to her speed.
But yeah this only works in cramped spaces because in open ones the full front can be utilized without issue just plain off a murderball. The more cramped, the less people can be active at the front at any point. And further, it only works with the support squads because they most likely actually listen to orders.
1 Like
I think both you and @BasilHerb who talked about the Support squads as fireteams, sort of missing the issue of fireteams being wholly superior at that. For two reasons: first is that the bigger picture tactics is gonna be taken by the SL, so they don’t take any extra time\energy from command to manage and the fireteam leader can just focus on the fighting. And the second is that fireteams can have quick replacements for attrition. Lets say you start with a team of 4 and lose 1 guy. You can quickly ask around new arrivals(if the comms are still up 
) and get a replacement soldier. Obviously, pretty much nobody plays like that in practice, but that’s exactly that very same playerbase skill issue. And if people rolling Kilo would just say fill 1 FT in Alpha and 1 FT in Delta, they’d just do pretty much the same thing, but better when it comes to organized operation in the murderball.
Of course that’s not the only task type that the Support squads do. The second type of tasks are the security tasks which I talked about in my previous posts(just don’t put them on those REEE!!!). And the third is independent operation. Particularly stuff like hive flanking, reaching sensors and so on.
In practice there now being 3 squads like that is just a bit of a headache for command to manage if they want to have a coherent strategy. People who want to flank the hive are on, but your frontline sucks - well they’re already flanking the hive without telling anyone and they’re gonna die because the assault squads didn’t pin the hive and didn’t kill enough xenos(yet). You want to send someone to flank the hive? But the SLs of the support squads this time just want to sideline with the main squads. So there’s inevitably a bit mixed expectations that command needs to try and accommodate, while somehow keeping an eye on the actual situation on the ground. Whereas the legacy\assault squads are just used to doing whatever command tells them and won’t complain about it much.
1 Like
7 Likes
Fireteams never do their job in practice
Support squads do their job in practice
fireteams being wholly superior
5 Likes
the only thing I use fireteams for is to make SG’s/Corpsmen follow SADAR or specs to ensure they get kills or dont get capd
other then that, ive only ever seen fireteams make conflict and have almost never contributed meaningfully to the organization of the squad or the mission.
as a bravo comtech, my asl told an FTL to ‘ take 2 rifles and go to comms ‘ he then put every single person in the squad, including me into it and the asl responded with ‘ i said put 2 not everyone who you didnt ask ‘ which was true because i wasnt leaving fob; he then starts berating the asl saying ‘ you didnt give me legal orders be better ‘ and then went and shot the ASL.
in my own experiences, I had someone do this to me in delta MORE THEN ONCE, Ive had it happen like 4-7 times and ive tried to politely tell them not to and then I had to resort to removing their fireteam 1 lead status and remove everyone from it; they then had a massive hissy fit and whined about the fact I didnt want them to assign all 20 people to their fireteam.
I really really really dont like fireteams, I think its really fucking stupid the guys who used to be RTO’s who were turned into FTL’s (because expecting them to follow you around and make radio calls was asinine and they just became SL replacements) are now full circle getting free radio bags and the SL is not, when an SL W/out a radio bag is practically trolling/griefing.
Not to say I havent had some good FTL’s, but Ive never had ‘ good fireteams ‘ because the squad leader tracker being turned into the TL tracker just serves to split the squad up with little to no benefit or sometimes I get asked by PFC metabuddies to have their friend made FTL with them in their FT.
on the other hand, aux squads STAY TOGETHER; properly, they check in on their leader and they focus on their task; trying to compare them without any nuance i think exposes a lack of familiarity with all of the things said here.
5 Likes
The question we should be asking when comparing the two is it the people problem or the system problem? I have no doubt that you had plenty of problems with cohesion in your squads. But do you think if we take the same people who were problematic and put them in the new aux squad they suddenly start playing much better? And vice versa if we take 4 good cohesion Kilo mains and put them into a fireteam in Alpha, do you really think they suddenly get really bad and start ignoring their job just because fireteam?
1 Like
brother, what are alpha’s orders usually? you’re missing the point….the 4 good cohesion kilo mains arent contributing the same thing if theyre just ungaing to ETA with delta/alpha; why would you have an alpha squad fireteam do minor side objectives? how do you miss the fact that an SO wouldnt be able to neatly track and monitor these people, they would have to remember the names of them and then flip through their cameras out of 20-30 people sometimes; thats just not efficient or sensical for having them do things far away from the squad with no SL supervision when aux squads can be listed seperately by default and dont require you to beg for more then 1 person whos willing to listen to instructions.
in real life, fireteams are not supposed to be hugely split apart; theyre supposed to strategically compliment each other, a fireteam SHOULD be ‘ hey FTL take 3 guys and push that left door while we push right and clear this building together then regroup and we move out again together‘
but I cant do that as SL and expect my FTL to have his dudes ready to split off on a word, its not practical or realistic; I have to beg ANYONE from ANY Squad to do that, because people who frontline rarely read the radio ( if we have comms )
i have had back to back great aux rounds, even when I lose but I have never ever once ever seen a fireteam rise to even the bear minimum of what auxs accomplish.
and its simply because the people who queue up for alpha frontline duty are not the same people who are doing kilo shenanigan’s, thats not a proper comparison and it fails to account for the fact that FTL’s have no obligation to listen, to follow orders or to go where you want them and aux’s do.
so when you talk about ‘ are the people the problem ‘ sure yes but also the system too; the tools for FTL’s are very bad and I will even argue counter productive… SL’s who have FTL’s that wont listen have no means to course correct; if my FTL is going to ignore me the whole op because he wants to do his own thing he will do that.
2 Likes
Oh, sorry, but I think you’ve missed the context behind what I was saying. I’m not arguing that fireteams are more effective than aux squads at isolated operations. I’m explicitly talking about what @gitbirb was discussing, which is effectively suborganizing murderball(assault squads).
And there fireteams can be quite effective as that basic marine combat unit, and I think you even understand how it works. 4 people who always move together would just be better at focusing targets and covering each other’s backs. So a Support squad does not really have any inherent advantages on the front line(in the murderball) and quite some disadvantages. Obviously in practice Kilo staffed with metabuddies, who are also some of the best players is going to perform way better even on the front line in comparison to not just a random staffed assault squad fireteam, but maybe even a full assault squad. But it’s the troop quality thing again.
As for FTLs that don’t listen to their SLs, as SL you can instantly sack them from a fireteam and replace with someone who’s listening.
1 Like
Why does this even matter?
Fireteams failed, they didn’t work and people didn’t use them the way they were supposed to be used.
‘But well, they COULD work if we just put the people who play Kilo in the fireteams instead’ is a pointless argument. Yes, a group of competent marines who are well coordinated will always be more effective. So what? The issue is getting the group of well-coordinated marines in the first place.
You can’t really do that with fireteams. There’s been multiple attempts, and none of them have worked due to deeper systemic issues.
You talk about using fireteams on the frontline- I recommend you actually try it out and see for yourself if it works. Roll Alpha SL, slap on an FTL and give them a fireteam, tell them to do X and see how many people do it. It just doesn’t work consistently, you need a genuinely good FTL with SL experience, and you also need to fill that fireteam with competent marines who listen to orders. You will be extremely hard pressed to find these people in your squad, whereas with Kilo, Oscar, etc, they’re already there and ready. Fireteams have remained impotent since the dawn of their conception by morrow, and no one’s really been able to get it to work, despite their best efforts.
Support squads succeeded because everyone in them was a willing participant, since you could opt in pre-round. The issue was mainly systemic, as evidenced by the fact that once ASS offered a much better alternative to fireteams, people gobbled it up.
Fireteams failed, ASS didn’t.
2 Likes
one time i watched a newer SL try to enforce fireteams in delta and somebody blew his shit straight off
1 Like
Im not gonna pretend I read all of this but from the few things I did you are just proving my point. Teamwork diff works both ways and as the game is currently balanced xenos are FAR MORE incentivized to work together than marines. Not only do they have unbreakable coms unless the queen dies but you can get a sense of what is happening on the front because you can observe every single xeno in the hive at any point at any time. Marines dont have that. Marines dont have a screen-wide AOE stun that the queen has. Competent Marines are less coordinated that a competent xenos at any point in the game. Period.
- Meta ungaball is most efficient. - You HAVE to be together or you will end up swallowed by the enemy ungaball.
2.Experienced players make the difference. - If you ever wondered why someone can consistently get in and out at the right times and get results, its that - experience.
3.The size of the ungball matters. The “cracked” Players dont give a single fuck about roleplaying with your squad. They have their build optimized for one thing and its not typing *me.
Hence why the original criticism of the system still holds true, you are treating the symptom not the problem. The problem is incentive.
Xenos on highpop are BEYOND(heh) incentivized to form an ungaball of their own once the queen deovis. For the sake of argument well assume a prime queen with prime xenos vs diamond medal marines in any role.
Since xenos or on the defensive in the early game, they can quickly relocate and respond to threats. What happens when the xenos show up at the flank’s location? When the queen uses an announcement everyone hears it and it cannot be disrupted. An efficient coordinator with experienced players on xeno side will win almost any game regardless of how many experienced marines you bring to the table. The only thing that can stop that is getting lucky with stims or getting xenomains that are throwing.
In case you dont get it yet - the hive is and will be much more coordinated than marines ever will due to the fact the queen can stunlock you for 10000 years.
*Mainteners please make it so that when the CO shouts inspiring cry every xeno gets stunned for 5-7 seconds unless another xeno taps them.
1 Like