Hostile Faction Rule Issues

General Policy Feedback
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There is already a thread about this but this is more general in nature, as frankly the whole thing is just terrible and actively forces NRP fragger gameplay. In the event the hostile survivor rework (Hostile Survivor Rework by Steelpoint · Pull Request #6308 · cmss13-devs/cmss13 · GitHub) gets successfully revived, these rules will hinder good faith players from creating interesting rounds for everyone involved. For posterity’s sake, the current hostile faction rules are as follows:

You are not held by Lethal Force rules so long as all of the following conditions are met:

  • You have not surrendered.
  • You have not willingly accepted medical aid from the USCM.
  • You have not changed into a uniform which obscures your allegiance.
  • You have remained “consistently hostile” to USCM forces.

I’m going to go point by point and explain why I think every part of this rule is terrible and actively hinders interesting player-driven gameplay, mainly from the point of view of a group of CLF survivors a-la LV nightmare insert.

  • You have not surrendered.

Beyond just the basic common sense issues of unscrupulous irregular militia fighters being physically unable to engage in perfidy, this creates a plethora of NRP issues in the event a CLF member is captured. If a CLF surrenders, that person is forever barred from actually acting like a member of a hostile faction. This can and has created scenarios where a CLF surrenders, is captured, and then eventually breaks free either through negligence or the intervention of other CLF, but is bound by nonsensical OOC restraints. With this current ruleset, it is explicitly against the rules for the surrendered CLF to ever engage in hostile activity ever again, which makes zero sense from an IC perspective. This fact is often abused by command and MP players, who know that once a CLF surrenders, he is bound by OOC rules preventing him from actually doing any real harm. Some CLF members breaking another CLF member out of prison or POW revolts should be actively encouraged, not discouraged or even against the rules.

  • You have not willingly accepted medical aid from the USCM.

This needs little comment but frankly, tricking or otherwise deceiving the USCM into directly aiding you as CLF is borderline impossible, but if someone does manage to pull this off it shouldn’t be against the rules.

  • You have not changed into a uniform which obscures your allegiance.

For gameplay reasons I can understand wanting factions to be visually distinct, but the current implementation of this rule is deeply flawed and encourages degenerative behavior. For example, I have personally witnessed numerous occasions where a CLF survivor has been killed and stripped naked, and then revived and set loose on the ship/colony. The CLF is now stuck in a catch 22, where if he is hostile it’s against the rules because he isn’t in his uniform, but if he isn’t hostile he isn’t being consistently hostile which causes him to forfeit his hostile status. This is beyond NRP, and is such a ridiculous expectation for players to follow intuitively. A USCM scout managing to steal the uniform of a CLF PERMANENTLY DISARMS HIM. The revolutionary spirit is not stored within the synth-cotton fibers of the soldier’s uniform.

  • You have remained “consistently hostile” to USCM forces.

There is already a thread up complaining about this part of the policy in particular but I’ll mention a few things anyway. Selectively choosing targets or performing acts of sabotage against the USCM other than shooting at them with your guns should be encouraged as another way for good faith players to take initiative in impacting the story of the round in interesting ways. For example, imagine a scenario where a CLF and a marine end up trapped in a pocket behind xeno lines. They temporarily cast aside their differences to survive, but once the immediate danger is over, they both part ways. Later, the CLF ambushes an IO and kills him. Then, that same marine that the CLF fought with earlier shows up, and attempts to negotiate to recover the IO. This is engaging, interesting, player driven roleplay that is currently explicitly against the rules. Insurgency and counterinsurgency is supposed to be morally grey. “But how am I supposed to know if he’s OOC hostile or not after I shift click examine him and see he has a clf uniform on???” If our playbase can’t cope with having to engage with the game beyond the TDM elements and clicking on the bad guys we should just drop the charade and go full TGMC.

A non-exhaustive list of things that are currently against the rules or very easily could be depending on the admin:

  • Not immediately killing a marine medic that has revived you as CLF
  • If you have lost your gun, not immediately sprinting at any marine in sight with a toolbox, as opposed to retreating to fight under better terms
  • Taking marines hostage instead of killing them (not consistently hostile)
  • losing your uniform and shooting at people with a shotgun while naked.
  • engaging in any indirect sabotage. Run into the FOB and throw a molotov at the mortar pit? You didn’t shoot the bravo rifleman you walked past to get there so that’s against the rules, sorry!
  • Anything that you would actually expect an irregular militia to do. (hide amongst civilians, not use a uniform, fake surrender, etc)
  • Lethally resisting arrest/detainment after capture, either from surrender or after the point you have your uniform removed.
  • ERT CLF spec stealing scout/sniper/pyro kits and using them (out of uniform)

Things that are allowed:

  • Hiding in a tarp for 20 minutes and getting wasted by the first marine that finds you
  • mindlessly and wordlessly fragging marines until killed
  • Bar RP with mps in a perma cell

If we are to follow the mantra of improve and not remove, the best course of action to improving hostile survivors is to encourage greater cooperation amongst CLF survivors by removing solo CLF survivor, completing the rework(hostile surv inserts on every/most maps) and completely getting rid of this policy. It encourages NRP rule-abusing by marines to safely disarm hostiles and discourages good faith players from creating engaging scenarios. There is no practical reason why the CLF cannot function as an active third party antagonist.

I’ve stated why I think the current policy is bad. I’d love to hear any counterarguments or alternative proposals to removing it. Also, let it be known I am the #1 solo CLF tarp hider hater, and literally never roll for solo CLF surv despite having platinum survivor hours.

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what if we just removed hostile survivor entirely and make this kind of thing event only because it sucks to moderate and play against and play at all in most cases

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My PR was created to address the issue of solo hostile survivors acting in a way that is counter to the general interests of regular survivors, such as the hostile survivor taking valuable supplies and then hiding so they had a chance to, most certainly, kill one marine before they themselves get killed by the marines.

As it is currently implemented, I genuinely think that hostile survivors should just be removed from the game, or someone needs to come in and do a massive rework of the concept.

I stand by my PR, as linked in the OP, as not being a solution to the problem, but that it eliminates the issue of hostile survivors acting to ruin or destroy the other survivors experience.

Human vs Human combat is not enjoyable outside of the HvH game mode, and that is due to the HvH game mode going to great lengths to re-balance how combat works, none of which is enabled for Distress Call since this would disrupt Xeno versus Human balance.

The hostile survivor rules are so bloated that even staff can struggle to interpret it correctly, especially since I feel every week we get some hostile survivor doing some extremely niche and hard to judge action that skirts the rules.

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I disagree. It adds a degree of uncertainty and variability to the drop. Obviously the majority of the enemies the marines fight should be aliens in a franchise called “Alien”, but hvh combat is, in fact, the standard combat in 99 percent of ss13 servers and there is nothing inherent in the concept that makes it “not enjoyable” other than that occasionally you might die due to circumstances out of your control, just like when you get friendly fired into crit and dragged away by a runner or bodyblocked by a defender and shot by an OT sadar. Sometimes you die and that’s part of the story of that round. In any case, many common complaints about why hostile surv combat is “bad”, such as:

  • I got shot by a scoped weapon
  • I got shot by a guy with nvgs
  • I didn’t have AP and got shot with AP
  • I was alone, got shot, and permad.

Are completely unrelated to the rules and policy surrounding hostile factions, and frankly, not even real problems in my opinion.

This is the actual problem that I am complaining about, and a hostile survivor rework will greatly benefit from the policy being less obtuse and more intuitive if massed groups of hostile survivors are more likely to survive until marines drop. Some of these rules are, to be blunt, completely asinine and do not belong in any server that wants to present itself as a RP server. If even the staff can’t cope with them, how on earth are the players supposed to? In a world were hostile CLF survivors are “balanced” and have zero gameplay issues, what is the actual problem with just giving them “ss13 antag status” and letting them do basically whatever when it comes to escalation?

It “sucking to moderate” is mostly because the rules don’t make any sense, which is what I am suggesting be changed. It sucks to play because 99 percent of the time you are completely alone, die as soon as you get IB or a fracture, and basically are pigeonholed by design into tarping and then fragging with NVGs and a scope. This would be alleviated by designing it so that CLF survivors only spawn in teams with leads, engineers, synths, and medics. It sucking to play against I think is mostly an issue of how little threat or impact they present 99.9 percent of the time due to almost always being completely alone. Perhaps CLF survivors would be more interesting to fight if, say, there was a team of them that were coordinating together. I very rarely hear people complaining that hostile human ERTs are unfun to play as or against. In fact, people usually are very excited when this happens. I fail to see how CLF survivors are any different.

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It is not about IC, or lore, or making sense. It is about not ruining other people’s game because you skid the thin line of rules.

There are no “good faith” hostile surv players. If they are good faith, they become normal surv, or die killing as many xenos as they can as hostile survs thanks to their slighty better roundstart gear.

It never happens. It never happens during regular rounds that another CLF busts you out of prison. It *could happen during an event, but that means there is an admin you can ask for premission which can exempt you from many rules.
Fuck “zero sense from IC perspective”. I already made a rant about this stupid fucking “muh IC sense”.

Replace “rational” with “IC sense”.

This indeed sounds like a rule that is already covered by being consistently hostile, since you can’t be both consistently hostile and willingly accept medical aid from USCM.

Hostile surv was stripped naked by responsible marines who wanted his gear and to make him less of a threat if down the line somebody revives them without restrains.
You want whole fucking shipside suffer because some random dumb MP did not restrain you and clueless, but good hearted doctor didn’t ask (or did ask and didn’t get answer) that dead, but revivable surv without cuffs in his medbay is infact a hostile survivor and not a regular one, a victim of greedy marines.

“Good faith, good faith”. At this point just make hostile surv whitelist and we can all agree for all of those “makes sense IC” statements. Otherwise I don’t belive in “good faith” hostile survs, especially that good chunk of them hide somewhere to frag one marine.

The audacity of this statement. If you want to be able to shoot on sight everyone then go play TGMC during end of the round Free For All.

Fuck this mantra and fuck hostile survs.

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  • IC, lore, and making sense are important for staying immersed in a roleplaying game.
  • dying or otherwise being impacted by the actions of a third hostile faction does not “ruin” your round just like dying to a lurker while running to the FOB doesn’t ruin your round
  • The rules being “skid” is mostly because they don’t make sense, OOC or IC.
  • If you think that survivor only exists to frag xenos predrop you have a flawed mindset and approach to this game. Survivor, oftentimes being a civilian role, leaves a lot of room to play a variety of different characters with their own goals and aspirations that playing as a grunt in the USCM doesn’t allow for. Using the role as a way to play PFC+ is the worst possible way to use it, maybe save for blowing your brains out roundstart. Also, how is CLF surv existing only to frag marines bad but “normal” surv existing only to frag xenos good?
  • Irrelevant for a number of reasons, namely because it has happened (I was present and involved and admins were not) and presumably will happen more frequently in a post hostile surv rework CM
  • Caring this little about the IC perspective of the characters in a roleplaying game is not an actual counterpoint
  • You’re exactly right! Which is why the policy makes zero sense! temporary alliances of convenience are NOT ALLOWED because you have to remain CONSISTENTLY HOSTILE! Agreeing to NOT shoot the USCM on sight means you have to be nice and friendly forever and ever, even if say, the hive gets wiped out or you never really intended to remain “friendly” anyway and only made the agreement to buy time. Anything interesting like that could conceivably result in unique, player driven roleplay is essentially illegal. The rules FORCE you to play as a total fucking psycho with no regard for any life including your own!

I am talking about the individual parts of the policy in a vacuum. By itself, this part of the policy doesn’t make sense and covers a situation that would almost never happen, and even if it did shouldn’t be against the rules.

  • Stripping off a CLF surv’s uniform to make it against the rules for him to fight back is actual bad faith behavior.
  • Fucking up so bad to the point that a dead, handcuffed, naked CLF survivor manages to escape (A failure on the part of the marines that detained him, command for not organizing transport, medics for not listening to orders, and MPs for not doing the one thing they are actually good for) shouldn’t force the CLF survivor to turn himself in peacefully or suffer ridiculous OOC consequences due to the IC actions of a different player.
  • Getting terrorized by a naked CLF survivor shipside is interesting player-driven roleplay. If the CL gets shot by a naked CLF survivor, that creates a unique story element that the players involved will probably remember for a while. If that same CLF survivor instead wordlessly shuffles past because he isn’t actually allowed to do anything it, instead, creates nothing. Always assuming that no other human players can do you any harm due to OOC restrictions is incredibly boring for any real “roleplay” as it removes all tension and possibility of conflict.
  • Whitelists should be avoided at all costs. Whitelists often are a popularity contest and a reflection of how many metafriends you have as opposed to any real indicator of merit. A much better solution is entirely game-oriented with assistance from in-game admins on the spot in instances of blatant or obvious mass grief or bad faith behavior. As an aside it is my opinion that Predators should be reworked to become a rare antag role and not a whitelist, but that’s a different topic. Also working joes too.
  • uninteresting tarp hiders being the only ones left playing CLF survivor is a direct consequence of poor game design and OOC policy, which is exactly what I’m complaining about and actively working to fix both in code and through suggesting policy changes. Directing player behavior is actually pretty easy and an important part of game design, and the current CLF survivor situation is a game design failure, not necessarily a player one.
  • The status quo IS shoot on sight, it is, in fact, an explicit policy requirement of hostile factions for them to retain their hostile status. Any subterfuge or masking of intent, which could present interesting player-driven ANYTHING, is NOT ALLOWED!
  • My original statement was mostly concerning the marine perspective. Presumably, this policy exists to make it extremely easy for a marine to tell if a CLF survivor is hostile or not. Not only does it fail at this by being obtuse and nonsensical, it assumes the players are too stupid to understand that the guy shooting at him or blowing up all the ammo or sabotaging the comms relay is not a friendly, but in fact, an enemy. Edge cases like a CLF somehow getting a full marine disguise without anyone noticing are 1. a skill issue, 2. more interesting than a guy fragging after tarping, 3. presents the exact same issue for the other CLF that presumably exist in a post-rework situation (how are your fellow clf going to ID you?), and 4. easily made against the rules anyway without making it against the rules to shoot the guy who just took off your uniform or making it against the rules to retreat from a fight as CLF.
  • I understand you do not like the current implementation of CLF survivor but the entire point I’m trying to make is that they fucking suck right now and any game-design changes I attempt to implement right now should also come with policy changes that make it less stupid.
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It is a GAME so it has to have enjoyable GAMEPLAY.

Every thrid hostile faction in CM has clear rules that prevent them from being a shithead and hostile surv has them too. The ammount of ruling for non-shitty hostile surv against everyone else requires whitelist level of rulings.

Oh yes, the rules about proper escalation that you can’t shoot other marines on sight, so if a naked character starts shooting you gamble if it is a marine grieffer, or legitemate CLF surv. 50-50 to either ignore the guy because it is an OOC issue and you will get ahealed, so you don’t want to give admemes more useless combat logs, or to shoot the guy because maybe it is need a hostile surv and IC issue.

The rules being abused by hostile survs would be the core ones, mainly 4 and 10. As a player I am expected to assume everyone follows the rules, am I not?

No I don’t think that. Survivor, as the name implies, has to survive. Hostile survivor can fuck himself in the current state.

Xenos have 100% certainty that any human during normal round is their enemy. There are no rules to prevent xenos killing anything that could be hostile to them.
Comparsion of hostile survivors to Marines for xenos would be rogue xenos to normal hive.
Yeah I want to see a roundstart “rogue” lurker offing drones weeding colony, this surerly will be fun and immersive, right?

They are allowed. But tis “temporary alliance” extends to whole round.
For a guy who preaches so much about “IC sense” and such, you are so quick to accept that CLF surviving extended period of time (it is like atleast a week after distress when marines show up) during xeno outbreak would only ally himself with marines for a minute, instead for atleast for how long the entire round will last.
How much sense does it make to be a CLF member who survived a week a literall alien hell to still want to kill arriving marines who came here to fight those aliens?

Not forever and ever, only for how long the round will last. You can imagine that after xeno threat is eliminated, your CLF OC snowflake will start to sabotage the Almayer, but it is after the OP.
Or what, you can’t just roleplay something in the future? You are not immersed enough to delay your hostilities for the future?

Because you would need to be one in order to be hostile to marines for no reason.

Nobody does that as it doesn’t fucking work like that. You are allowed to continue fighting as CLF if your shit got stripped when you were dead. You just have to do that in pyjamas. What psycho who got revived by kind marines would not fight in pyjamas, when he still wanted to fight them anyway? A psycho for sure.

HAHHAHAHAH. Permakilling some defenceless CL is peak RP I agree.

Yep, but your mantra of “improve, not remove” fucks you over, pal. Whitelist for hostile surv.

Wait till the councilllors see this thread. This is gonna be sweet.

You know that we had an “Agent” role? It was a shipside mostly RP job that was randomly assigned to do some minor sabotage.
It was removed because it was shitty. And this agent wasn’t even allowed to shoot on sight willy nilly. It was supposed to be more RP role and it fucking failed.
This says enough about your concept of subterfuge.
ANd masking of intent is so fucking dumb. You want to mask intent? Play fucking regular vanilla SS13 and roll syndie.

That is good, because this allows marines a fair chance. Ideally hostile surv should be removed.

Fuck entire concept of a hostile survivor.

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The whole shipside crew being murderboned by the CLF who isn’t saying a single word isn’t really “interesting roleplay” for anyone but the CLF.

Which non-psycho would just get back to murdering random soldiers after having barely escaped being eaten by aliens and fighting alongside them?

About that, I’m not an admin, but I wouldn’t really consider being stripped to underwear “changing into an uniform which obscures your allegiance”.

Is it possible that you don’t care about other players and only want to get to murder random people trying to enjoy the game?

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Please let us not turn this into a fifty comment thread with two to three people arguing with each other.

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CLF is an antagonist to the marines just like xenos are. They are meant to end/ruin the game for you if they can. Xenos are balanced as they are the primary faction/aspect of the base game. Hostile survs on the other hand are not. Their combat is ranged and unbalanced for the base game which means it is unfun to play against and as. They contribute little to the game since they just either hold with other survivors and get arrested afterwards only to spend the round in perma or hide in a tarp/grass patch till the marines land and ambush them once and die. Being as light armoured and armed as they are they may fuck up a single marine and get killed immediately afterwards. The internal, IB and fracs they will cause are extremely unfun to deal with for the player getting shot. I say off with them entirely. There’s nothing justifying keeping them. They are more of a grief role imo.

This is how pred feedback got closed. Please do not.

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getting killed in cm isn’t a bad thing. CLF killing people isn’t against the rules. The current policy prevents the CLF from interacting with the marines in any way other than killing them on sight. the CLF isn’t “unbalanced” or “OP”. They are intentionally designed to be worse than the marines. Please click this link, if you actually read my OP you would understand that this entire conversation is predicated on solo clf survivor NOT EXISTING. Reminder that insulting my non-existent CLF OC (I do not play clf surv) is not an actual point. Saying “I don’t like how CLF survivor is currently implemented” is irrelevant. The actual point I am making is about how the current hostile faction policy is flawed. Not liking how solo CLF plays right now in game is a game design problem, not a policy problem. If you have any input on the hostile survivor rework, you can post it here:Discord

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This reminds me of a round dunno if it was an admin spawn or what but there was a clf group on I wanna say solaris with a doc that could do surgery and everything and they set up in the abandoned mines and were a genuine threat not only to xenos but also to marines and ended up taking the scout prisoner to trade for another clf member that had been arrested beforehand…
A bravo(?) medic tried gunning the clf down wordlessly mid rp and the scout got lunge mined for it but I think it was still a good example of what hostile survs COULD be because there was some genuinely interesting rp and combat going on before the NRP unga hoard came for them.

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People seem to forget the core of CM is Human vs Xenomorphs (shooting stuffs, FPS TDM RPG style) not Greytiders vs Security ( vanilla SS13), and upset when they get bwoinked for disrupting the core mechanics of the server (shooting stuffs). This may sounds like a “skill issue” answer but if you want to be greytiders griefing around you can go to… vanilla SS13 servers.

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I very rarely hear people complaining that hostile human ERTs are unfun to play as or against. In fact, people usually are very excited when this happens. I fail to see how CLF survivors are any different.

that’s more than likely because when you’re fighting a hostile human ERT 99.9% of the time it’s round end, hijack, or an event. You have less of a stake in the game. Imagine how it feels to deploy first drop, ready to get into a fight, hoping things go well. Then you get plinked from offscreen with a Basira by a guy with NVG who you can’t even fight back against and get fractures, organ damage, all that, and have to wait 10-15 minutes (if you’re lucky and the doctor is competent) to go shipside, get surgery, then get back into the dropship and start fighting again. This is all assuming the CLF guy isn’t filled with malice and drags your dead body off to decapitate you so you’re completely out of the round.

that’s the current state it’s in. it’s basically meaningless in the long run other than removing a few marines from the round for a period of time, and has no RP value.

Now imagine this but it’s 5 guys with Basiras plinking you from offscreen while one guy with NVG covers them from runners or whatever and a fucking synth. If the CLF are competent they can very easily pick off groups of 3 or more marines, drag them away, perma them, repeat the process. Even if you do manage to kill them, there’s still almost no RP value in it. This would only make CLF a bit more fun to play as, not to play against. Which isn’t good design, in my opinion.

Most xenos are actually fun to play against because you have a ranged option whereas they mostly only have melee, and you can usually counter most of their tactics. CLF is like playing a point and click adventure game where you win until the scout or someone else with NVGs comes and kills you.

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The current policy forbids you from doing anything other than this which is why this is the only thing that could possibly happen. This is what I’m complaining about. This is the problem. You are not allowed to interact with marines in any way other than shooting them on sight. If you don’t shoot them on sight you lose your hostile status and are forced to do zero stakes, zero conflict, zero tension barrp in a perma cell. This is the policy problem I’m talking about. I shouldn’t have to keep repeating this.

Funnily enough, there is a similar faction already present in the game, that isn’t event only, and is entirely player driven. They’re called corrupted xenomorphs, which can choose to ally themselves with or against the marines or normal hive at will, whenever they want. This is interesting. This has stakes. This has the potential to cause conflict and allows people to play their characters in interesting ways. Why can’t the CLF do this as well?

In any case I think CLF snipers plinking at you and your squad is actually interesting. See “Full Metal Jacket” or “Enemy at The Gates.” It’s cool to walk into the hive and see all your dead friends, it’s cool to see your missing IO was actually skinned and strung up by a predator, why can’t it also be cool to find out that the CLF attacked the comms relay and took hostages?

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because corrupted are actually useful beyond being 5 normal people who can instantly kill you, and corrupted you can actually do things with
i kill clf on sight, i kill anyone wearing a clf uniform if i see them, and the armour if they look even remotely hostile
i am going to kill clf on sight even if they have more interactions because none of it is interesting and there’s nothing they can to do to help me that outweighs the risk of my round being ruined and me being round removed

snipers also aren’t interesting on cm because in real life i can see more than 7m infront of me and irl people aren’t perfectly accurate sniper hellbeasts with no regard for their own life and have more of a vested interest than just ‘i wonder how many people i can frag’

hostile survivors should be entirely removed because for every person who wants this so-called ‘rp’ with it, there are so many more people who use it solely as a vessel for fragging who will never have these interesting interactions and who will be remembered more for that than any amount of positivity because something is only as good as its average

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  • Judging something in a RP game by how much it helps you frag xenos is not a good metric
    edit: I also forgot to mention the entire point of me bringing up greenos: they are a faction that can be hostile to anyone at any time at will non-consistently and the CLF being allowed to do the same thing on a policy level is also a good thing for the same reasons it’s good for greenos.
  • dying or getting !!!ROUND REMOVED!!! :flushed: :flushed: :flushed: is NOT A BAD THING. I shouldn’t have to even explain that

it’s incredible how nearly everyone posting in this thread somehow cannot fathom or understand that if you:

  • have a policy that makes it against the rules to do anything as CLF other than frag until death
  • mechanically only spawn hostile CLF by himself, discouraging anyone who want to interact with anyone else from selecting the role, which leaves ONLY those who want to play it to frag marines.

You get an end result of only fraggers fragging marines, BUT if you:

  • Remove the ability to reliably spawn as solo CLF and replace it with exclusively nightmare inserts that only spawn by RANDOM CHANCE from a pool of ALL players who have selected the survivor role
  • Do not FORCE hostile survivors to ALWAYS shoot on sight from a policy perspective.

It might result in a better implementation of hostile survivors that people enjoy playing as and against. For example, I’d wager that the round that the post below is talking about came from the testmerge of the rework.

Despite the events of this round VIOLATING the SACRED hostile faction policy and the EVIL BAD FAITH CLF survivors absolutely RUINING that poor scout’s round by… taking him hostage for use in a prisoner exchange instead of wordlessly blowing his head off, the round is still remembered fondly half a year later.

I could be fucking completely goddamn wrong. Maybe the player base is too checked out of the RP aspects of the game to take advantage of improvements to the policy and rework and will just frag anyway. We won’t know until we try.

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I appreciate the attempt, but they will never understand this.

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When it happens against xenos it is fair because it boils down to skill and ultimately the responsibility falls on you. When it happens against CLF on the other hand where you just get shot by someone you do not see, getting fucked in mere seconds and being able to do nothing about it, no. That is unfun. What is fun about the game is that with sufficient effort you can come out on top. That is not the case when CLF ambush you. One factor is that you don’t really expect it and it becomes even more frustrating. When I come to CM I want to have fun and I am willing to fuck up and die by xenos. I do not play so I can helplessly die to a CLF off screen. CLF is basically a justification for griefers to shoot at marines. There’s just not much else to it. You just ruin someone’s round pause.

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Greenos get to decide once whether they want to be hostile or not, and marines knew the risk before making them. They also have the same limitations as normal benos combat-wise, as opposed to the CLF camping LV hydro road with NVGs and a scope.

True, it would be so much better if the CLF could frag to death, abuse Baldie McOverdose the doctor’s lack of knowledge and continue fragging after being revived.

If you actually wanted to do RP as CLF, I doubt it would be too hard to get admin approval. You could as well remove the punishment for griefing as it might cause interesting RP.

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