HVH and it's problems...

General Discussion
1

Personally, I think that the removal of darkness was one of the greatest mistakes with HVH. It just makes it feel dumbed down to me, and more like I’m playing a twitch shooter, than something I have to sit down and think about when I’m playing. There’s no cover of darkness, there’s no stealth, there’s no tactical use of flares or light, there’s just so much removed tactics wise with HVH being set to daytime. It feels DUMB (to me). If I could change one thing about HVH, it’d be to bring darkness back (and make sure all NVG’s are removed of course).

What do y’all think of HVH as of right now? I’m quite curious to hear.

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Me when I walk next to a single glowing mushroom nourished by human waste and instantly get decapitated by 7 dudes with suppressed Mk2s in the same bathroom(no one has any fucking idea where they are going because they’ve been pushing random movements keys for thirty minutes in pitch black)

Mfw I’ve been right clicking every tile for an hour to find victims

I really like the new HvH non-darkness system, I know the pitch black war had its charms but honestly the positives outweigh the negatives by a massive margin here.

I found myself twitch shooting far more in the darkness than I do now- Literally examining every tile to search for people to jump before they could right click MY tile was peak paranoia, especially when all you had to go off of was muzzle flashes for light.

Suppressed + NVG was comically evil as SG. Literally unkillable

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In my humble opinion, full darkness in HvH was one of the single worst things to deal with for the game mode.

The game would devolve in to both factions running around in full dark, everyone afraid to fire their weapon as doing so would reveal their position. If anyone dared walk near any light source, they’d be instantly fired upon by a dozen other people. Entire squads of enemies would walk past each other in the darkness. Scouts and NVG users would be kings for their free reign to see all and kill all.

I’ve thought of it before, and the ONLY way I could see full darkness combat working for HvH would be a asymmetric USCM v CLF event where the Marines can’t disable their shoulder light under any circumstance but the CLF can remain hidden in the dark, so it creates a situation where the Marines need to advance slowly and clear away the dark. But this would be a huge code issue, and it further would be a big departure from current HvH.

You could argue that this was a “soulful” aspect of old HvH, but personally I found it to be highly unsatisfying. There was no back and fourth frontline, no extended combat, just isolated players running in circles with no single coherent frontline existing, and everyone abusing night vision to get a one up.

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If you try HvH in PvE, you’ll see what the problem with darkness is in HvH :smiley:

It’s fun to be the guy skulking in the dark, but getting shot from nowhere is not fun for the guy being shot :frowning: - Most GMs still make the mistake so if you they ever announce HvH you should try get into one of the PvE Lobbies. It’s incredibly fun knowing that the Marines aren’t having fun, but it’s AWFUL to play against people skulking in the dark who instakill you :frowning:

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full darkness sucks cuz it just turns into shooting blindly at each other with your lights off while the 5 jobs with NVG go on a fragfrest.

I disliked the loss of long range binocs cuz it allowed you to think tactically and plan ambushes / your moves carefully.

Also really didnt like the accuracy changes to the guns, beforehand you were rewarded heavily for flanking, using cover, and ambushing enemies, since getting the drop on them gave you an advantage to kill them before they could react and killl you, as well as being able to lay suppressing fire down corridors meant you could lock down areas with MG fire and force people to flank.

RN with the low accuracy it means people who can spriteclick/know how to game the accuracy system can kinda dominate & cover is way less important because you can just run around in the open secure that if you cant see the guy his bullets cant hit you.

It also makes flanking/ambush a lot less valuable because the misses give them time to react and fill you with lead before they go down, RNG depending this can lead to them winning an engagement where you set it up to your advantage.

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6

Personally I would be inclined to return some or all of the binoc range back with some changes.

The rational for the change was that older HvH saw both factions glued to their binoculars 24/7, they’d binoc, see a enemy, then swap to their gun and fire off-screen.

I feel that if we added a code change that if you move while using a binocular, you’ll unscope from the binocular view, then I’d be happy to see binocs returned to their former glory.

In terms of the accuracy changes, I believe they are a necessary change. Old HvH combat mostly occurred off screen, either that or as soon as you are seen, you are killed by the enemy, or worse yet both sides would trade deaths and die at the same time as each other.

The current system, ideally, gives you time to react when you are fired on, makes being struck by bullets from a off-screen enemy less likely to occur thus giving you more time to take cover, and it encourages you to get into CQC combat since accuracy is increased at close range.

Is it perfect? No, but I feel its a good step.

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It would be rather interesting in how returning the bino back to its former glory would play out.

Might allow for more tactics and thinking ahead, I would say TM it for a HVH match and see how it plays out

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if you make a PR that that puts like a two second windup on using binos and prevents you from moving / turns off binos when you move then feel free (I did speand more time then I should have in past week on CM already). I think I have made that change before most of the ammo balance. I feel like binos are strong even as they are, but I see your point how they could lead to interesting gameplay. When it comes to accuracy I am not changing it, for reasons stated by steel. Also the part that people just do not experiment… you can still lock down areas with mg fire, m56d has decent accuracy and super high accuracy range compared to other guns with full AP (12 tiles), but I have not seen anyone try it. Everyone just tries o go for “meta” and do not want to go out of their comfort zone and have fun.

And no, as someone who has played HvH rounds with darkeness, it sounds fun when you are the god of death with NV, but fucking sucks ass for anyone else

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HVH traditionally isn’t that fun in SS13.

Like I respect Steelpoint for trying but like. Discount Arma is not a good fit, IMO.

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Discount Arma? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Wdym?

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I get that. But honestly I feel it’s a problem with a lot of people not knowing how to use darkness effectively (or more importantly, to push dark areas). Especially with how I’ve seen it handled well in HAI PVE ops, and people generally have a better time there with full darkness. Obviously NVG’s are a huge issue which is why in my original post I mentioned having full darkness with all NVG’s disabled.

In HAI ops on PVE, people usually end up using flares to light the way as they move up, often tossing them where they think any HAI might be (or using starshells which are FREE in prep), and they are usually able to progress quite easily so long as they know what they are doing, NVG’s or no. If people could just get used to using full darkness in HVH(again with all NVG’s removed like they should be) I feel it could be a lot more interesting of a gamemode.

Of course 1 to 1 PVE HAI and PVP HVH isn’t the same, but going back between the two, PVP HVH just feels soulless right now.

Besides, current PVP HVH combat feels awful to me, since you will get instantly murked the second you are out in the open to be sprite clicked. Or marines will toss a HEDP at you, since the UPP have no real equivalent UGL nade (like they do in PVE).

The asymmetric USCM v CLF sounds like it could be awesome if balanced right though.

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The only way I see it work is if you could accustom yourself to darkness, getting really low night vision. But if someone throws a bright as flare at you you get blinded for a couple of seconds (then as well if they accustomed themselves).

But it’s going into massive coding territory and I don’t know if it’s even worth it.

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People ask for increasing accuracy and complain about how fast you die at the same time. People complain about both sides being the same and also about any difference from the two sides. People complain about being harmed by stuff they can not see (be it from off screen with scopes scout or the darkness before) and ask for darkness at the same time. We have removed darkness as we do not consider stumbling around blindly fun. Removed IB and added nanosplints as splints comes off instantly during gunfight and IB is super easy to get from gunshots and you have enough bloodloss. Made both sides have basicly the same gun and the same armor values to make the fight fair with similar numbers on each side. Nerfed flame damage a LOT as getting set on fire was death sentence. Nerfed explosives massivly in damage and stun potential as they were also instakill if not on itself then with the stun. Introduced accuracy as value as from the two options 1) reducing damage by 50% 2) reducing hit chance by 50% this one is BETTER and LOOKS BETTER, you can complain about half of your bullets missing, but the alternative to it would be hitting all the shots and doing the same if not less damage. The accuracy is extra reduced at range as we are not interested in off screen combat except for MG nests and some exceptions. You can complain about each of the changes, but keep in mind that if it was changed to what YOU want there would be many others who do not want that. The goals are to go for CQC combat that is not so lethal that you do not have option to react (so when you say that now when you flank enemy they have chance to react, it is the system working as intended). Also mind you they say that uscm has way more tools then UPP, UPP has eqivalent of all the main tools that USCM uses during HvX, it is just that a LOT more stuff is viable during HvH then HvX. There are goals to how HvH should look like, if you do not like them then that is your thing, rather point out parts that do not work as inteanded with given goals. Or make your own gamemode, you can reuse all the automation and set up your own values and even darkness, the bulk of the job is done for you and if you get admin willing to run it then feel free, I did try to make the stuff as modular as I could so you in fact need MINIMAL efford to make it, but I am not interested in playing such gamemode enough to code (you basicly do not even have to code) it myself

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14

The biggest issue is for me is…

SL’s need to prepare their squads better. Basically, HvH is ranged engagements over significant distances. HvX is not like this, they’re close quarters. Marines are not used to engaging others at distances. So my PSA is that SL’s need to prepare their marines for it. They need to advance to contact, and then take cover, fire, and fix the enemy. Assess the situation. Far to often your marines, unless pre briefed, will just run forward and die. Then others will die recovering them. SL’s, and medics need to take Smokes, to assist with body recovery. And they need to work hard to get their marines taking cover, and luring the enemy into known terrain once contact is initiated.

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15

yes I need to add the UPP squad comms at some point, it is the last part that UPP lacks compared to USCM… but full on channel rework was reqested from me last time I started work at it and that would take quite a while to make

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Literally the shitties of takes out of all shit takes and I mean it.

Since first HvH event I played in CM I was a big advocate to remove darkness for HvH every time.

You just sit in a dark corner with some more, or less permanent light source nearby and then you shoot guys who happen to enter a tile that is lit. Completly not dumbed down at all, right guys?
Because right now you gotta hug cover, if you spot an enemy you can try off-screen suppression, or flanking, or you can try close the distance under cover, or something.
With darkness all of that gone. Just walk around in pitch-black darkness, hoping you are mashing movement keys to actually get anywhere and not be stuck at some kind of corridor for 10 minutes straight not even knowing you are trying to hump a wall, but also not daring to turn on the light due to fear to getting killed.

If this isn’t a bait troll post, then I’m questioning OPs sanity.

All of the changes Steelpoint made to HvH were more, or less good.

Like man… Game lets you see like 7 tiles in each direction and we want darkness on top against ranged enemy. I have to stop myself from flinging slurs.

2 Likes
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Eh, I don’t think that amount of sass is necessarily constructive here. OP just wanted to know what everyone else’s take on current HvH vs old HvH was like.

Overall, I think the general vibe is that contemporary HvH is vastly preferred over the old. The critics are a small but vocal minority, but considering just how much traffic the HvH events get even at lowpop hours, it’s pretty clear that they’re not unpopular.

@cuberound Regarding all the people who go “X IS UNBALANCED” or “Y IS OP”, honestly at this point it feels like it’s more just a knee jerk reaction to who or what they got killed by. Getting feedback based off those vibes is probably just going to be painful imo since they’re less grounded in hard facts and more just opinionated EOR salt.

To be sure at the start it was certainly valid to call UPP broken as fuck, but nowadays it honestly feels on par, albeit UPP still suffers from issues with tacmap and comms.

Factionwide coordination (which mitigates attrition) is the deciding factor in who wins post-balance patch, given neither faction holds a noticable base advantage now.

Honestly, I’m a bit surprised the poll feature isn’t used more often in-game. It’s literally survey data representative of the entire active CM playerbase (those who care enough about the game to press a button, anyways).

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If it was only that, I would just say that having darkness during HvH is simply unfun and will never be. But after something like this:

In such case sass in necessary, because it is a troll/bait, or just objectively bad take on par with saying that old LTB tank was fair, fun and balanced.

Difference between HvH with darkness and HvH without it, as we have it now, is, no pun intended, night and day. Either insufferable slog, or actually a fun gameplay. And I did state reasons why later.
I’m honest when I say that I have to physically restrain myself from shitflinging and it takes considerable effort.

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19

I think you have some issues to resolve. I will pray for you.

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tacmap might be easy after the new tacmap rework is in (no idea but it is possible) and comms… “:i” = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTERCOM, “.i” = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTERCOM, “#i” = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTERCOM,
“:h” = RADIO_CHANNEL_DEPARTMENT, “.h” = RADIO_CHANNEL_DEPARTMENT, “#h” = RADIO_CHANNEL_DEPARTMENT,
“:w” = RADIO_MODE_WHISPER, “.w” = RADIO_MODE_WHISPER, “#w” = RADIO_MODE_WHISPER,
“:+” = RADIO_CHANNEL_SPECIAL, “.+” = RADIO_CHANNEL_SPECIAL, “#+” = RADIO_CHANNEL_SPECIAL, //activate radio-specific special functions

":m" = RADIO_CHANNEL_MEDSCI, ".m" = RADIO_CHANNEL_MEDSCI, "#m" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_MED,
":n" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ENGI, ".n" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ENGI, "#n" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_ENGI,
":g" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ALMAYER, ".g" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ALMAYER, "#g" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_GEN,
":v" = RADIO_CHANNEL_COMMAND , ".v" = RADIO_CHANNEL_COMMAND , "#v" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_CMD,
":a" = SQUAD_MARINE_1, ".a" = SQUAD_MARINE_1, "#a" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_MED,
":b" = SQUAD_MARINE_2, ".b" = SQUAD_MARINE_2, "#b" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_ENGI,
":c" = SQUAD_MARINE_3, ".c" = SQUAD_MARINE_3, "#c" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_CMD,
":d" = SQUAD_MARINE_4, ".d" = SQUAD_MARINE_4, "#d" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_CCT,
":e" = SQUAD_MARINE_5, ".e" = SQUAD_MARINE_5, "#e" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_ENGI,
":f" = SQUAD_MARINE_CRYO, ".f" = SQUAD_MARINE_CRYO, "#f" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_MED,
":p" = RADIO_CHANNEL_MP , ".p" = RADIO_CHANNEL_MP , "#p" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_GEN,
":u" = RADIO_CHANNEL_REQ, ".u" = RADIO_CHANNEL_REQ, "#u" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_GEN,
":j" = RADIO_CHANNEL_JTAC, ".j" = RADIO_CHANNEL_JTAC, "#j" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_CCT,
":t" = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTEL, ".t" = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTEL, "#t" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_KDO,
":y" = RADIO_CHANNEL_WY, ".y" = RADIO_CHANNEL_WY, "#y" = RADIO_CHANNEL_WY,
":o" = RADIO_CHANNEL_COLONY, ".o" = RADIO_CHANNEL_COLONY, "#o" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_CCT,
":z" = RADIO_CHANNEL_HIGHCOM, ".z" = RADIO_CHANNEL_HIGHCOM, "#z" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_CMD,
":k" = SQUAD_SOF, ".k" = SQUAD_SOF, "#k" = RADIO_CHANNEL_WY_WO,
":q" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ROYAL_MARINE, ".q" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ROYAL_MARINE,
":r" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PROVOST, ".r" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PROVOST, "#r" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PROVOST,
":s" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CIA, ".s" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CIA,

":I" = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTERCOM, ".I" = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTERCOM, "#I" = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTERCOM,
":H" = RADIO_CHANNEL_DEPARTMENT, ".H" = RADIO_CHANNEL_DEPARTMENT, "#H" = RADIO_CHANNEL_DEPARTMENT,
":W" = RADIO_MODE_WHISPER, ".W" = RADIO_MODE_WHISPER, "#W" = RADIO_MODE_WHISPER,

":M" = RADIO_CHANNEL_MEDSCI, ".M" = RADIO_CHANNEL_MEDSCI, "#M" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_MED,
":N" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ENGI, ".N" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ENGI, "#N" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_ENGI,
":G" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ALMAYER, ".G" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ALMAYER, "#G" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_GEN,
":V" = RADIO_CHANNEL_COMMAND, ".V" = RADIO_CHANNEL_COMMAND, "#V" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_CMD,
":A" = SQUAD_MARINE_1, ".A" = SQUAD_MARINE_1, "#A" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_MED,
":B" = SQUAD_MARINE_2, ".B" = SQUAD_MARINE_2, "#B" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_ENGI,
":C" = SQUAD_MARINE_3, ".C" = SQUAD_MARINE_3, "#C" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_CMD,
":D" = SQUAD_MARINE_4, ".D" = SQUAD_MARINE_4, "#D" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CLF_CCT,
":E" = SQUAD_MARINE_5, ".E" = SQUAD_MARINE_5, "#E" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_ENGI,
":F" = SQUAD_MARINE_CRYO, ".F" = SQUAD_MARINE_CRYO, "#F" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_MED,
":P" = RADIO_CHANNEL_MP, ".P" = RADIO_CHANNEL_MP, "#P" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_GEN,
":U" = RADIO_CHANNEL_REQ, ".U" = RADIO_CHANNEL_REQ, "#U" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_GEN,
":J" = RADIO_CHANNEL_JTAC, ".J" = RADIO_CHANNEL_JTAC, "#J" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_CCT,
":T" = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTEL, ".T" = RADIO_CHANNEL_INTEL, "#T" = RADIO_CHANNEL_UPP_KDO,
":Y" = RADIO_CHANNEL_WY, ".Y" = RADIO_CHANNEL_WY, "#Y" = RADIO_CHANNEL_WY,
":O" = RADIO_CHANNEL_COLONY, ".O" = RADIO_CHANNEL_COLONY, "#O" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_CCT,
":Z" = RADIO_CHANNEL_HIGHCOM, ".Z" = RADIO_CHANNEL_HIGHCOM, "#Z" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PMC_CMD,
":K" = SQUAD_SOF, ".K" = SQUAD_SOF, "#K" = RADIO_CHANNEL_WY_WO,
":Q" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ROYAL_MARINE, ".Q" = RADIO_CHANNEL_ROYAL_MARINE,
":R" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PROVOST, ".R" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PROVOST, "#R" = RADIO_CHANNEL_PROVOST,
":S" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CIA, ".S" = RADIO_CHANNEL_CIA,

)) this is the current list of comms and they are a BIT full and would requipre proper rework for upp squad comms. to be honest the keys are bloody random right now. ideal rework would be having ". : ; # $ % "as prefixes for factions and alphabet as channel of that faction buuut a lot of work

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