what about the 10%
The 10% is all me. I reach into the servers and pull plugs to not make your inputs go in when they are supposed to.
It’s also worth acknowledging that the stakes for overextending are waaaay higher for a Marine player on the individual level.
They don’t get a larva queue or lesser drones or huggers (and no, cryo Marines and ERTs aren’t numerous enough when you look at it from an individual player’s perspective). While they can be revived under the right circumstances, there are lasting repercussions for botching combat that cost time and coordination to address, and getting capped or going perma knocks them entirely out of the round without likely recourse.
So you get an environment where playing aggressively can lock you out of playing your preferred faction for an hour+. The more the potential repercussions stack up, the more incentive there is for less robust players to cadehug and do lukewarm pushes.
Anybody who says that dying as xeno has no consequences because “You can just get another larva” has (probably) never played xeno. You’re lucky to get one or two at most, and it’ll almost always be a long wait to get one. As marine you can get revived an absurd amount aslong as you don’t overextend way too hard.
5 Likes
Me when i get instant PBd as runner, and have to wait an hour to respawn since hive dosn’t try to cap.
2 Likes
Yeah, that’s what I mean by the penalty for overextending being significantly more severe for Marines. Where and how you die doesn’t make a difference as a Xeno when it comes to getting back up. It does as a Marine – you can’t be revived if you can’t be reached in time.
Edit: And I didn’t say there are no consequences to dying as a Xeno, nor do I think that’s in any way the case. It’s just mechanically different and encourages different behavior.
1 Like
Instead of being reliant on how and where you die, xenoes are very reliant on marines dying to get back up. But even then, as a marine and you got capped, you get first priority for the larva bursting from you, while the xenoes who capped you and die get to wait an hour for a spot unless they wanna do hugger gameplay (while xenoes are alread just a quarter of the playerbase, hugger players are a quarter of them). So just throwing out “Marine harder since no respawn” is just cope from one side saying the other is easier/more OP.
2 Likes
I realize that. That’s what I meant by “preferred faction” (I got tired of writing “Marine-only players” everywhere). And I’m not even beginning to argue that having a harsher penalty for overextension and more long-term maluses means that Marines are harder to play in general than Xenos, only that it can shape how people play.
Realizing I over-edited and over-trimmed my initial post to the point where my tone isn’t coming through given the replies, so lemme just say that I don’t think Marine permadeath is a bad thing. It’s essential to the dynamic and results in a lot of very human behaviors and good storytelling (and incentivizes people to play Xeno regularly, etc). Did not mean this to come across as an attack or something. Yikes.
M56D, Thrown items delay, Scout nerfs, Metal Foam, Evo boost speed post hijack making Marine Minor comebacks a near impossibility
just off the top of my head- You can argue that these were not ‘balance’ tippers but keep in mind each single item nerfed above was doing enough damage to the ‘xenometa’ that it warranted a nerf
1 Like
That is a very odd take. While there are technically marine Marine rules to follow than as a Xeno, in practice you have to go out of your way to break a rule.
Like when I made soyjaks on the map and got banned for 7 days for it?
1 Like
M56D stacking hasn’t really been a meta, but was considered horrendusly strong to the point only a single caste could counter it effectivly. all in all, i have yet to see anyone actually be affected by it, as M56D users are already rare.
Throw item delay only affects if you’re gonna spam something. If you want to just throw nades, it only affects you if you want to both throw and activate like 4 nades in a second. Might be anoying, but nothing really balance changing.
Metal foam only got nerfed from non-nades, as it would take a whole hive like 30 minutes of clicking metal foam to get through one lonely researcher with spare time.
Scout gets less ammo from REQ, but scouts rarely need it as they end up capped in the hive 10 minutes into the match anyhow. so it only really affects godlike scouts.
Evo boost is there so xenoes don’t wait 20 minutes groundside to get their evos up so they can hijack. At best, its a RP nerf, giving you less time on average to RP.
Like, they are all very nothing nerfs, that pale in comparison to actual nerfs. Like the ol’ -20% ROF when we got full auto.
2 Likes
Ok so the main point is, for every buff we get, we get a nerf
Which sounds great because in devs heads, its balancing, but tbh, Marine gameplay is getting simplified and dumbed down, removing any avenues for creativity
And Xeno kits have much easier time capitalizing on simplistic game flow
“M56D stacking hasn’t really been a meta, but was considered horrendusly strong to the point only a single caste could counter it effectivly. all in all, i have yet to see anyone actually be affected by it, as M56D users are already rare.”
Absolutely false lol M56D was nerfed because it was stacked for like 2-3 rounds straight and the boiler failed to glob em. First it was the area change, then burst fire nerf. Now it’s pretty much useless and an Arthritis simulator
“Throw item delay only affects if you’re gonna spam something. If you want to just throw nades, it only affects you if you want to both throw and activate like 4 nades in a second. Might be anoying, but nothing really balance changing.”
Affected requisitions more than you know
Metal foam was a niche and fun way to delay/deny area- It not being created in research was good change- it now being one clickable was not
Dont get me started on Scout
All of these changes have resoundly affected the meta and forced Marines to change the way they play- They might not have been staples, but they were strong enough to warrant a nerf.
I’m just personally telling you to not be oblivious to these marine nerfs because they did happen for a reason, and enough for it to affect the supposed w/r. AGAIN, I get it, w/r doesn’t mean everything blah blah, I’m just telling YOU that Marines have been on the receiving end of some nerfs other than Bone Gel; so when you say “other than Bone Gel nerf what nerfs did Marines get,” Look above
2 Likes
I dont think these changes effect marines that much. If you overrely on those things maybe, but if you don’t? your probably fine. at most, cutting out cancer from the game. It will have hardly any impact on actual marine win/loss since it affects so few people. I do think its a shame to remove burst mode from m56d tho, it killed the weapon completely - but alsooo it was iff, and super high dmg.
Marines win and lose, is, imo, based on a few factors:
Strength/Cohesiveness of a front (win factor // more effective use of firepower.
Imo, good marines can impact this part the most, since good marines can lead by example and make the front more cohesive by filling in the gaps. Lots of marines are bad at managing risk, so someone who knows the game better, knows what fights they can take and win, can position more aggressively to zone out xenos, and can help everyone manage risk better, aswell as raise marine confidence/morale.)
Injuries sustained on the front (loss factor // less effective use of firepower. Backliners sabotaging supply lines is the easiest way to drive the knife in for this. Noob cargotechs, noob comtechs, noob corpsmen, and sometimes noob command can do it too.)
Positioning of a front (Can it be flanked//What are its weakpoints? Is it overextended? Is it inefficient? Is it effective?) (And ironically, CIC barely impacts this, only individual marines making choices such as rotating, flanking, etc.)
Vision/information on the front (Is it flared? Where is queen and xenos? Without this info, its hard to push. Binocs and MD are great here.)
Morale on the battlefield (good morale is more winnable, since with bad morale you may even have people getting capped since front is immobile due to fear. Good marines might perish to this trap, which often leads to a total lack of cohesiveness. Noob marines are easy to outplay as xeno, even as a noob xeno.
A low morale front cannot be led by example, since its stalled out, unable to function. Often, it’s held up by a majority injured or nooby/overwhelmed marines. At this point, fallback is often necessary, if heavy losses already occurred aswell, it may be gg. A groundside CO helps against this fate, but cannot stop it forever, since it’s just inherently caused by skill issue or numbers disadvantage.
It’s a lot easier to play extra defensive during this point, so holding open areas, fob, etc. Mortar/CAS and specs are an equalizer, since they kill regardless of front strength, and can even kill when marines are turtled in cades. Another equalizer is xenos overextending and committing suicide, which is why playing defensive is so good here.
You’ve always got some margin where you can play aggressive too. Like say, blast a few t1s or t2s in this situation just by aggressive but defensive positioning of a few marines, which can help alleviate a lot of pressure. It only takes 2 marines to kill 1 xeno oftentimes, and 1 marine if the xeno positions horribly or is a backliner caste.)
Do xenos have pylon? (If Yes? It may be gg, since xeno lives become a lot less costly. If forced in a defensive battle, may become impossible to retake the tower if its across the map. Preventative measures are the way to go here, but even then, its SO easy for xenos to just take a break, mobilize, and retake the tower since its on the other side of the map. If marines dont respond in full force, then xenos win, if marines do respond in full force, then xenos take back what they lost in caves. Always a lose lose situation, not a fun neutral objective unless marines have numbers advantage. its to the point where its basically never defended because marines just dont wanna go off the front.)
Strength/Cohesiveness of enemy front (Once a few marines die, this becomes a lot more dangerous. If theres no cohesiveness of enemy front, it may be gg, marine favored. Lack of enemy cohesiveness often caused by bad hive comps, nooby xenos, or low xeno number. You often simply win when you overwhelm your enemy. Flanking/blindsiding an active front will disorganize and encircle the enemy, leading to less risky victories.)
and:
Number of Enemy compared to Number of Marines
Generally roundstart, i’d say it’s a bit in marine favor (even on lowpop). However the thing that really shifts a round is the first fight - usually the bloodiest. Injuries effectively reduce your troops capacity since they can’t chase or support nearly as effectively. Meanwhile if xenos die, other xenos are now ineffective, often lacking support, and lacking firepower. It just opens a looot of holes in your defense that were previously filled by that xenos existence.
An early injury/xeno death is imo a lot worse then a late one, since you lose that number for the whole of the round. They never got to make an impact of bonebreaks, kills, area control, etc. Sometimes tho, it doesn’t matter to lose a xeno. Like say, a strong runner over time bonebreaks 5 people, and gets caps in their lifetime. They are actively adding to xenos a lot, so even if they die, if they come back, they can do the same thing in that life, and make each life worth the loss. They are helping xenos snowball.
Lives are a resource that can be used as xeno, just like how lives are a resource that can be used as marine. Ofc, dying without reason is bad, but you always have some amount of risk you can take.
The reason I mostly say injuries is because ideally, you don’t want marines permaing early - early permas lead to fast losses, and that marine never gets to make any impact over the whole round. Individual marines DO matter. And even 5 early caps will offset the game so heavily in the xenos favor (5 off marine side, 5 extra early xenos on xeno side).
Those marines don’t just contribute by kills - they could later do something that impacts the round greatly, like defend another marine from dying, support a marine to push a area, or support a marine to save a dead marine. Xenos can always rebuild their numbers, which can easily make permaing for a 1f1 inefficient if done too early. Or worse, you get capped. It’s better to play safe and consistent then risky and inconsistent. might take that as play overdefensive - but thats also ineffective since there is “too much” defensive, since opportunity cost is super important.
Just play where you have advantage, and so long as you don’t lose it for little benefit, you’ll gain more and more advantage over time.
So overall i honestly think the biggest factor in lack of marine comebacks rn is pylon or especially, numbers disadvantage. Ofc, marines rely a lot on good players being online too, so it also comes down to who is online and how effective their playstyle is. If they ded then its gg as front is too weakened. Same concept as specs/sgs being pillars of the marines.
tldr:
just putting alot of my non-sequitur experience/thoughts with wincons. If you got anything else, (like other factors, am i stupid, am i overthinking it) lets discuss! this is an awesome topic.
2 Likes
The average marine has the brain of an ant, and if somebody a bit smarter pushes, some of them might follow, unfortunately most of them still won’t, and being a pointman is a risky job, leading to them eventually dying, so instead of marines stomping every round (as a whole they’re MUCH stronger than xenos) we just get a cadehugging death spiral.
2 Likes
It’s mostly just balds. Even then, a lot of the decent players forget that marines can do more than walk and shoot. Marines could get a lot more done if they actually used the shit they’ve been given.
As an example. Why doesn’t bravo squad have a dedicated radio operator with a laze so the normandy can call them for rappels? Why don’t more marines make a couple of ammo boxes before deployment to alleviate their dependence on REQ? Why do marines leave trash on everything important at the FOB? etc
We had one round on chance’s claim where a single engineer saved basically the entire marine force. We were completely flanked by the xenos to the east and were blocked by walls to the south. This guy had brought breaching charges and got us through like 4 sets of walls/colony crawlers and shit before the xenos charged in and found us gone. A single marine that’s being proactive can get a lot done, which is why I don’t count kills as the highest metric for whether someone is a skilled marine or not.
7 Likes
Why in the actual fuck would you ever rappel to FOB? (besides FOB siege, but that shit sucks and I’d rather stay shipside most of the time)
1 Like
This right here, lost count of the times I’ve critted a queen or t3 within range of 5 marines and they just saw my light go out so they figure “damn he’s in darkness I can’t finish that ravager now” uh no you have a built in light buddy just run over and finish.
5 Likes
this is why i play with my friends and find out who’s good at the game or not (and stick with them because i have skill issue)
i have been in so many marine fumbles recently that i’ve learned when to stay shipside/cryo/commit tactical suicide
i have also started being an SL main because while im not robust i am a veteran and all these kinda dumb marines need is someone to push them onwards
you’d be surprised how much a single marine with big overhead letters and a very visible pointing graphic can get marines moving or following orders
on an entirely different note, marine skill issue is so bad that i have two funny examples;
Smartgunner runs up to a line of 6~ marines, tells them to push, then gets jumped by a warrior followed by 2 ravs off weeds
All six marines run away upon seeing the warrior before the ravs come in
I once pushed after OB and chased a boiler., didn’t even kill it
Suddenly my squad comms and command comms are filled with people impressed with me
I got a medal for running at a boiler and made ground CO by CIC
3 Likes
Im blaming uou from now on when i overextend or make stupid mistakes.
1 Like
I’m a lurker main, people are gonna blame me for everything. From losing their Starbucks coffee to the ground to getting the sun in their eyes.
1 Like