That would indeed make that map a tiny bit better. And a lot of funnier, when every single OP marines decide to OB the city just as soon as they land, on top of using toxic gas before they land.
What if colony had nightmare insert OB-sized bomb spawn at the start of a game that explodes, hmmm? We can say it was atmosphere processor blowing up.
Outlining the walls doesnât do anything to explain why you think itâs maze-like, youâd have to describe things like itâs complexity, what makes it confusing, what makes it repetitive and what gives it a lack of a clear path. Constructive criticism rather. Which Iâd welcome.
Itâs true however the map is dense, which I donât deny, you make a good point in that it being open would work better for gameplay, but as itâs trying to emulate a dense urban environment, how would I achieve this without drastically simplifying the map, making it less and less âUrbanâ themed. How exactly does one make a âUrbanâ themed map work on CM without making the map an un-godly size? Things like extending the road size, having big open areas. Would make the map twice as large, which wouldnât work for obvious reasons.
My solution was literally making (almost) everything destructible, I even wanted the lampposts to be, but it was turned down for some reason, the solution to that was given in the form of the whole shimmying mechanic, which I know can be annoying, but things can change regarding that in the future Iâm sure.
I think the marine players and Xenos to an extent need to think of Hybrisa as another beast altogether compared to other maps, and strategize a bit better. For the marines making use of CAS is extremely effective, as well as the mortar. OBing buildings works very well to clear a path as well.
Also players forget that pretty much everything can be broken by shooting it as well, which is far quicker then you realize. For Xenos actually melting/slashing cars and things in their path, rather then complaining that thereâs shit in the way (almost every single thing can be slashed or melted).
Another thing you mentioned is CORSTAT, which I think Hybrisa differs from in a few aspects. Mainly the fact CORSTAT was separated into various domes with very few entrances into, which also had unbreakable walls all around each zone, an insane amount of them, and areas also that lead into space, which also makes the areas in-between even more narrow.
Hybrisa on the other hand only really has one area which is separated by an unbreakable wall, which is the area into the caves, even so you can open it up further with the pod-locks giving more access into the caves once you press the button in Research.
Also with CORSTAT, itâs very maze-like in itâs design, not much distinction between each area, that being said I still know the layout of CORSTAT because I actually played it enough to know the layout, which once again comes with time.
Hybrisa in itâs design is very straight forward in which path to take, which will always be west, then south. The roads are very well defined and pretty much lead one way. Honestly I think youâre exaggerating the whole maze-like thing, if you know the map well enough itâs all very straight-forward. Each zone is visually different, distinct and has unique props or things to further distinguish it being a different area, unlike a maze.
Anyways, Iâve rambled too much about this. Just know that things can change in time, be redesigned and better implemented, there are always solutions, saying itâs unsalvageable is hardly the right thing to say. That also goes for CORSTAT, in fact someone was actually working on a nice rework for CORSTAT as well, which would make it play a lot better. Think also on how much most maps have changed over the years as well.
I have no problems with people making changes and improving things and I hope they will honestly.
I really donât see how can you even compare CORSAT with Hybrisa. CORSAT was generally a mostly open map. All domes were easy to secure for marines and even the hive location didnât have that much of a hell choke. The problem with it was that is was too big, so marines struggled with protecting their supply lines from xeno backliners.
On a more comical note, with the majority of the new CM maps being wide open ones, now the criticism has shifted to them being too big and to those people, probably the ideal map has like 2 screens of space between the FOB and the hive entrance, so that xenos wonât be able to flank and lurkers wonât be able to get kills.
Regarding the âjust OBâ advice, maps being fully openable with OBs is actually a bit of a problem map-design wise. The middle ground of the map would get OBd and opened, xenos wonât be able to hold the open ground, because thatâs just how it is, so the fight then progresses to the chokes, if there are any. Thus, ideally the maps should actually try to have some OB-indestructable terrain to avoid every single map middle ground turning into the same flat space. The best example of that is Hydro road jungle. Slightly worse is Trijent excav area, if only if it was say 20% tighter.
Sure inside the domes it was big, inside the domes was honestly fine, itâs just that each dome only had at max like three entrances of 4 tile wide at most, which could easily be locked down by Xenos, and getting around to the other entrance side of the dome youâd have to walk all the way around the map.
The starting hive location at the very SW corner of the map also only had three entrances, two being only two tile wide entrances, and was very easy to defend as a Xeno. Since itâs a massive map as well it doesnât help with how far away it is located.
The hallways connecting each zone were fairly maze-like and only 4 tiles max as well, which also made locking down hallways easy, but I guess you could say that for marines as well.
The main issue yeah was it was large and confusing. My main issue was the generic nature of the map, itâs not that special really, the tiles are nice, but it has little actual variation other then the domes, and even then itâs just the tile-set from other maps rather then unique domes. Itâs all mainly just labs and hallways, I know thatâs an issue with older maps, but CORSTAT feels the most âsameyâ kind of map for some reason.
Donât get me wrong I still want CORSTAT as a map, and I really hope someone finishes the revamp. It was actually being worked on by forest not Bobby, my mistake, but hereâs some images, not sure if theyâre old or not, and honestly not even sure this is still being worked on.
It perfectly explains why I think it is maze-like. It is a maze without free spaces unless you OB it. I only outlined regular, reinforced and indestructable walls. I didnât outline windows, random junk and stuff. If I did first I would die out of old age.
A highway trough the entire map, atleast two screens wide, east to west. Take the road from waste disposal to gateway, shift, or remove pizza, offices and/or apartament complex. Aforementioned football/soccer/whatever stadium. âUrbanâ doesnât mean just roads and office/commercial buildings.
I already complemented the map theme, atmosphere and such, but we are talking here about gameplay, not soul. It is not PvE.
No it wouldnât. Map is already too big. You can shift and remove stuff.
Perfect, now every marine has to carry IMP ammo rack with the ammount of shit they are supposed to shoot. Riveting gameplay, I always liked to click on reinforced xeno walls, now I can enjoy shooting my gun at a car wreck.
Xenos donât want open spaces, they thrive in mazes that block firelines. They have little to no reason to break that stuff other than gray blob of a container, or something shifting into a gray blob of a road and such so that they didnât notice it immediately, bump into it while marines are chasing and dying.
Why you think xenos make those 2x2 wall blocks as defences? Just to hinder themselfs?
So every piece of shit car, or a dumpster is a buffed xeno membrane that you canât melee to break as a marine.
Do you think marines forget to use mortar and CAS? And what is the point of this dense âurbanâ map when proposed solution is just to level it to the ground with OB and other explosives? Returning back to the atmosphere processor, what if marines just immediately go there after landing and shoot cooling stuff so that it blows up in two minutes after and completly destroys every single building, with a lucky reinforced wall surviving here and there?
In one aspect it differs is no free open spaces unless you OB it. CORSAT was more open than Hybrisa, yeah, sure it has its own problems with hellchokes. And it was overall smaller.
No distinction except bigass domes that have entirely different tilesets, unlike for example gateway that has a pissblood color code that differs from dehydrated piss color of dynagrid.
It is not a contest which one is better, both are bad in my opinion from gameplay perspective.
In my opinion it is as salvageable as CORSAT is. Where is them WHORESAT salvage at now? Dev hell.
Each, CORSAT was even more open than Hybrisa is, that is my entire point. And it was still smaller than Hybrisa is. And Hybrisa doesnât âwasteâ any space for fields of space/indestructable walls like CORSAT did to make it smaller in scope. Hybrisa uses almost every single tile from northwest to northeast.
We should be glad that caves exist and map isnât entirely âurbanâ with Engineerâs ship parked in the middle recently.
If more open, but also a hellchoke full CORSAT had marines struggle with securing supply lines then surely something even more tight and dense, while having to clear points that can cut backliners off, wonât have the same problems, right?
Whose criticism shifted? I was always vocal about needlesly big maps being introduced like mapmakers expected, or were told that CM it the new big hit and we will have regular playerbase like during âhighdaysâ of Ssethtide.
Ideal map would be actually a chunk of Hybrisa plastered in the middle with open spaces around, you know, variety and stuff. Different gameplay, different strategies and such. Being forced into desolate desert, or urban maze isnât fun.
Yup, agree. Yet we have map that was designed to be almost entirely destructable and this is marketed as a âfeatureâ.
So your issue with CORSAT isnât a gameplay one, only that it âfeltâ generic. Yeah, sure it was generic, barerly different from prison sation in aesthetics, but we already established Hybrisa has peak aesthetics and atmosphere.
No I donât think it does, try doing the same with pretty much any other map, outlining each buildings, Chances, New Varadero, Soro ect. Youâll have the same effect, Hybrisaâs buildings all have the same design structure, multiple windows/doors as well. Also what maps have just huge empty buildings that arenât at least a 4 tile wide hallway in some areas or so? Or less for most maps. There may be less room in some buildings overall but the hallway structure of Hybrisa is always at least the same 3 or 4 tiles wide, save a few areas.
Having even more roads and removing interesting buildings and such in favor of big empty fields sounds boring, but if someone can find a way of doing it without removing the âsoulâ of interesting buildings and such like the Pizza building and such, then go for it.
Changing large sections of the map is honestly beyond me at this point, already invested months of my life on this map, and I just donât have the energy myself to do that. Like Iâve said though, others are free to make changes that want to see, and I have no issues with that. Itâs always been an open project, and Iâve always been willing to accept help.
Oh no marines actually have to make use of a specific gun that was designed exactly for demolishing walls, and things like C4âs, breaching charges and such which are all in the game for no reason. Have to spend maybe two seconds collectively shooting a car to remove it completely. Or better yet one Drone can just acid it once and leave it to melt, which takes two seconds also.
You mean the cars, stone planters, lampposts and everything marines can shoot through? While Xenos canât tackle/grab through? Thatâs one reason the Xenos might wanna remove them rather then leave them for the marines as well. It kind of works both ways, but in a way favors the marines as obstacles that can be shot over.
What is the point in maps having any kind of logic to them by that logic, why not just have flat plains with no features, just empty rooms for nothing for xenos/marines to have to deal with ect. Just remove anything that gets in the way of âgameplayâ. You know the answer to your own question.
CORSTAT is only more open in the Domes themselves, which are only accessible by 4 tile wide doors which can easily be turned into chokes, you canât break the walls around the domes at all, everything on the colony side, which youâre complaining about can be broken unlike with CORSTAT.
Also Hybrisa like Iâve said has open areas, you just have to clear the roads of debris, which like Iâve said is not as hard as youâre making it out to be, you literally have all the tools/manpower needed to make it into a very very easy task.
Sure buildings have a lot more clutter in general, but itâs mostly superficial and doesnât actually prevent you from moving around it, as in it has no density.
It is salvageable, and like Iâve posted there was someone working on revamping it not too long ago, but most of the devs have lives and are very busy with things, itâs all just out of their own time, so you canât blame people taking a very long time with anything development-wise on CM.
Itâs really not, especially if you count the cave area and such. Even the domes arenât as open as youâre remembering, the hallways and buildings are certainly not, being only four and three tiles wide for the majority of the map.
This is true, almost every inch of space it used up in comparison to CORSTAT, itâs actually a smaller map size technically but CORSTAT has a lot of void space and such. I mean youâre saying using up space is a bad thing, but if itâs meaningful to the map itâs not that bad.
Honestly Hybrisa was always intended to be a big map, and be played with a higher population, itâs one of the reasons why it only really works with a higher population too.
Honestly caves have always been like that on any map, and the larger the map the easier it is to get cut off regardless.
If youâre talking about the Engi-ship being a hellchoke though, people forget that the inside ship walls can be heavily destroyed, so you can really open up the ship now, unlike when the map first was being tested.
Honestly making an ideal map isnât really obtainable, if that was possible nobody would be complaining when itâs âinsert map nameâ next round.
I donât think anyone can really capture what makes a great map, other then the enjoyment you personally have had in your time playing it. Sure there are design aspects that work and donât work generally, but the game is always changing with new mechanics added and new ways to change the balance and flow of the game.
You arenât the only one who dislikes Hybrisa, but thereâs people who like it, you have to ask yourself why do they like it?
I mean the caves exist for that reason, the original idea was that half the map would be a flattenable colony side, which favors things like OBâs, CAS and can be opened up, so the more time fighting there the harder it is for Xenos, which would eventually force them back into the âsaferâ cave system.
I can see the point about perhaps having more unbreakable areas in the colony, but I think people would complain about that too.
Yeah Iâll admit I never went into making Hybrisa with the intentions of it being the best balanced, pure gameplay only map. Iâm also more about aesthetics then gameplay, as I think CM has strayed far too far from the original intent of the server in general, and thereâs not enough âRPâ, âLoreâ and interesting aspects other then âUNGAâ.
The intent was to bring more assets to the game, a true âUrbanâ themed map and more of a different experience then other maps in some ways.
Iâve learned a lot in making it as well, and what works balance-wise and what doesnât, itâs just taken a lot out of me and drastically changing things now myself would be too much effort for me right now. Like I said Iâm always up for other people making changes and improvements to the map down the line though.
Pretty much 1 to 1, Sorok might be slightly bigger even.
Between LZs we have pretty much open spaces with indestructable walls sprinkled here and there so it is not unfair to xenos. You canât OB it leaving an empty field, but there is plenty of room to move around. About 1/3 of a map, maybe not quite 1/3, but close.
Then we go to the middle and also a bit directly east from LZ1, big building which is maze-y like entire colony side of Hybrisa, but instead it only takes something close to 1/3, probably even less than previous area between LZs. Still less maze-like than average Hybrisa Building.
The rest (more than 1/3) are green âcavesâ which I didnât count in Hybrisa too, because there is no denial that every kind of xeno caves is abit maze-y, objectively.
Here Hybrisa shows us Research Lab that I also didnât count as part of the colony, but it is your typical standard dense building.
But look at soro and its carp lake, its thermal springs, its weeping lake and south of it. So much space, generally a bit tighter than âcoldâ part of a map between LZs, but still.
For the rest of mentioned map I have no patience to highlight walls, but seriously, you compare New Varandero to Hybrisa? The same New Varandero with Rockabilly Beach, bar and Monsoon?
Sure, you have a building in the middle. But that is not the point to have a chunk of a map to be a tight building. It is about bigass map being 2/3 a tight building with roads that act like corridors anyway. New varandero has 4 tile corridors which pretty much scale to Hybrisa 8 tile roads.
Chance Claim is also maze-y, but overall map is smaller. I think it my least favourite map, if I can I play shipside, or atleast a xeno there.
It is my subjective feeling that smaller maze is better than bigger maze. I am not claiming that every âstandardâ map is good and Hybrisa has to compete with all of them.
Me when I OB interesting Pizza building, because I need open space. 
Well, good for you and congrats of a big piece of a good work. Gameplay lacks, but as it was established multiple times it has a lot of soul, good aesthetics and theme, but my concerns are purely gameplay related. You are not bound to do anything, no fixing, or anything. I am just giving my opinion on a map, xeno players might like it a lot, marine players will just OB everything and scrap the rest for metal creating gigafob that this server has never seen before.
Which they donât get more than they would during another LV playtrough.
I mismembered them blocking bullets, but okay, I give you that.
Flat plains are a gameplay in itself. Flat plains with mazes made out of metal walls change gameplay drasticly.
And this void space makes map smaller. We should not consider what is âtechnicallyâ available.
No, just using up space isnât a bad thing just in itself.
And I am very against idea of âbig mapsâ. I think that even LV can comfortably fit 200+ playerbase. Hybrisa seems like it would work on 400+.
No, I am not talking about engi-ship, or about caves being bad. Caves in Hybrisa are less maze-like than buildings.
There are goals one can be guided by. Having varied environment is one of those goals. Some open space, some mazes, etc. With Hybrisa we are forced into mazes, or caves, or to OB mazes so we have plains that are unfair to xenos.
Because they mainly focus on the atmosphere and âsoulâ of this map, which as stated gorrilion times is at peak of what SS13CM can achieve?
There are maps that are considered good by most and because of âsoulâ.
Too bad, because some intentions to make map fun to play on, not only for sight-seeing walks, would be nice.
You can have your RP, lore and interesting aspects while having a balanced gameplay wise. It is not mutually exclusive.
Look at Half-Life 2. It combines fun combat and puzzle encounters with atmosphere and lore, hell, you can even try to RP as Gordon.
One could have the most beautyfull, lore-rich etc map, but it could also be frustrating to play on, in that case game with that map failed.
How it is directly exclusive with balanced and fun gameplay?
Take it slow, rest, soak that knowledge, maybe in the future we will have a map that despite being new, will dethrone LV/big red while also being soulfull.
general player sentiment ingame is that itâs a quick favourite even with the balance issues
Okay well Iâm not going to say much much as this could go on forever.
I donât think thereâs really any convincing you to see my point of view, but itâs probably because youâre an LV-enjoyer type player.
One last small point about maps in general. You say you donât think having a big area being OB-able is ever a good thing? Then why is one of, if not âTheâ most popular maps âSolaris Ridgeâ able to pretty much flattened on the whole of the âcolonyâ side of the map having a massive empty field.
I know itâs a much smaller map the Hybrisa, but the concept is the same, the size of the area you can technically flatten is gigantic, and thereâs barely any unbreakable walls at the colony side.
Either way I understand your concerns in general.
Things will most likely change in the future, but considering how burned out I am with development, probably not directly from me, not gonna lie itâs disheartening being told your map is âunsalvageableâ after many months and much time and effort put into it, but just know things can change.
Because it is not a perfect map, it might be one of the two most popular maps, but it also has flaws. Xenos are at big disadventage compared to marines when there is nothing but empty fields. That is why I think it is a bad thing, alonside the other guy who brought the issue.
Maze-like structures and buildings on the other hand favour xenos and marines are at the disadventage.
There should be some indestructable walls here and there to give xenos an anchor point. Big Red LZ1 rounds where marines OB medbay more, or less on purpose, devolve into hellsieges.
Me liking LV doesnât matter. I am opposed to two concepts - Needlessly big maps and maps having almot entire structure that favours one side. LV has xeno-sided caves and marine-sided colony that half of it isnât even weedable and beach is just a big open field that you can even OB to destroy any xeno defences.
Your point is that map has âsoulâ is aestheticaly pleasing and such. We both agree.
Maybe I was too harsh, but that is the general feeling I have. Even you think that making much bigger road and removing an interesting building would ruin the map.
Donât get me wrong, what I am going to write now is not in the context of Hybrisa map and more of a general offtopic - Sometimes you can work hard for a year and still make something mediocre at best. Sometimes sweat, tears and blood ammount to nothing.
If you wonât acknowledge this simple fact of life, you will get depressed in the worst case scenario, in the best case you will stop putting much effort into anything. Donât let that happen.
Iâll bring a different take as someone who doesnât like modern maps, Personally I really like it, It reminds me a lot of old prison before you tried to make it all nice and fancy with multiple map flows.
The map features a lot of whatâs missing out of CM nowadays, Tight indoor combat and as a former engineer main, thatâs the kind of thing I LOVE, You got a lot of options to how to approach these buildings, Blowâem up with mortars or OB?, C4/Breaching charge a quick route through?, Or use the tight building to setup traps.
as much as people would love to let you think, not everyone loves wide open areaâs, I love my indoor fights much more than the outdoor ones.
Itâs very unnecessary to flatten the buildings on Solaris - all the buildings can be fought through reliably, and the roads are big enough to host full squads. Every door you can swiftly push, to make xenos stop abusing the small doors as chokepoints. They arenât too small that itâs cramped either, and itâs overall a fun battleground.
The buildings connect smoothly, and gameplay feels great going between them.
OBing it can actually be a detriment to marines, since it makes the map TOO open, and isnât for the purpose of getting rid of chokepoints. This can lead to excessively defensive play, and imo often causes gameplay failures like âtrench warfareâ where not enough of a side wants to go into the enemys no-mans-land as it feels like a death trap. it ruins the âneutral feelingâ of colonyside that encourages combat and makes it easier to kill enemies, and just leads to unenjoyable and time-wasting usage of open space.
The marines spread out too much to mount a cohesive offensive - and the xenos canât push because marines are stronger when xenos have no defenses in order to approach.
I think the map could teach a lesson that colonyside buildings should always connect smoothly, and size + length of pathways are an important consideration of mapping (since it leads players naturally). It also shows that destructible walls should serve a purpose of bypassing chokepoints (or creating extra routes to apply force) up until the âtrue chokepoint areaâ like filt, lambda, eta. This serves to make the map feel simpler for new players, since colonyside is an obvious neutral ground (with backliners) and lots of routes to path through.
Also the martian soil is great at scaring away xenos from camping roads.
Ofc. Idk if any of this reasoning makes sense, iâm just spitballing ideas.
I canât comment on if Hybrisaâs buildings feel the same way or differently. I usually skip the map and find it very difficult to wrap my head around - i donât think thatâs unusual for marine players either, since most marines are inexperienced, they will just know enough to play Solaris or LV (the most simple and user-friendly maps) and not much else.
Thatâs just not true though, the choke always ends up at the Hospital entrance, which marines always end up flattening.
Big open areas will always favor marines rather then tight cramped areas. Youâre just wrong about that. The only time it doesnât favor marines is because things like CAS and Mortars are easier to avoid, but overall itâs much easier to push a big open area as a marine then a cramped hallway or such.
Think also of maps like Soro, where youâre stuck at the Engi area, unable to push, using a HE and flatting the area vastly helps the marines ability to be able to push, this goes for many areas on other maps as well, but Soro is a great example.
You also say that the buildings are connected in a better way, but what makes Hybrisaâs buildings not connected in a similar way? Also the roads are very large like Iâve stated, being 8 tiles wide rather then Solarisâs 4 in some places, sure it opens up to bigger areas, but you have things on Hybrisa that open up like the parking lots and such as well. The only difference being obstacles like cars, which Iâve stated many times can easily be removed.
I think really the issue is that Hybrisa has many more obstacles which annoy people, cars, shutters, things that block the path rather then on Solaris which is a lot more empty in that aspect, if I took away everything youâd see how itâs not as different as youâre making it out, but removing all of that removes the soul. Also like Iâve stated things can be destroyed.
Idk I honestly think you are overstating the problems with hybrisa. Buildings are really cool. All of them. Both as xeno and as marine. If you struggle as a marine, use the tools available to your faction, such as XM51 breaching shotgun, which solves all the problems with walls on all maps. Use fire support, OBs, etc. Really, you have the tools. Use them. And use your head. Fucking adapt and overcome.
The legitimate issues that I can think of: there is too many cars and you donât have tools to get rid of them, engineer ship chokes are still aids, shutters suck for xenos (especially near LZ), the mazeness of the map is really annoying: you cannot get north from south by walking north, you need to go around, but like CC has the same issue (itâs really hard to leave reactor on your first round as xeno).
But again, I think this map is leagues better than LV and people still vote damn LV every round. Even though it objectively sucks.
After the Hybrisa HVH event, your thoughts?
Honestly? Spent the entire round as a Bravo CT, ordered to stay on the FOB.
Went outside the wire with a team-mate, got split up, urban hellscape slop occurs and I die ~5 times.
10/10 would do again.
So average urban warfare stuff happened, gotcha.
quite really even if a map favors one side a bit more that the other that not really a issue as long as the map roster is even everything is fine in the end.
Whats more we like you said have the tools to deal with it. i mean Marines can stock up on a shit ton of C4 if only they spend the points on it, thats not even counting the c4 from req. maps that push/force for more creative movement and plans are great. i may like the LV slop but that doesnât mean i donât want some spice. thatâs partly why i love Hybrisa it makes death balling hard with out pre-planning.
You can only be mad at a few things at a time. So, some people were mad about the classic maps being choke heavy. Now the majority of the map pool is wide open maps, so the size is now the thing to complain about in those circles. And trying to remove the classic maps from the map pool too, because the majority is still voting for them. Or at least rework the chokes out, see all the Big Red reworks over time.
seconded, engineer is an extra giga cave after youâve pushed through cave slop, cars are a pain in the ass to clear and should probably be able to be shot away easier.
also lamp posts were really frustrating as a drone since youâd have to leave random gaps in your walls to accomodate them.
it was perfection, the urban environment had plenty of routes, flanks, and cover to actually enjoy HVH. it was leagues and leagues above all the prior HVH events in my opinion.
