Continuation of Billions of Privates must be gibbed. - #2 by Butlerblock and the three immediate posts following by myself and @Lagomorphica. Separate thread made so the extremely important and high RP original thread is not de-railed. I assumed that Lagomorphica was referencing this rule while making the statement that using supply drops to gib a human is against the rules, so it will be the basis of my post.
Rule 4: No griefing’s subrule of Permanent Removal appears to be written explicitly for HvH since the mechanical constraints on preventing dead bodies from being affected do not apply for other humans. Despite this, there is an annotation within this stating that warrior’s decap is an exception to this rule, so we must assume that anything written under the description of no round removal is applied to xenos as well.
This begs the question of what is explicitly defined as a fair round removal and an unfair round removal for Xenos, since their entire purpose is to round remove marines using their gameplay loop, ie. cap marines or kill them and prevent them from getting revived. Is it just gibbing? If so, why is Queen allowed to have an entire mechanic revolved around this(which is NOT noted as an exception to the rule). If Xenos are being completely barred from using hazards to gib humans, then why do they even gib. Why not let xenos use creative ways to incapacitate their opponents without a random, poorly written rule stating “Yeah actually you’re preventing the mechanic of marines being able to be raised from the dead, and you can’t do that”. I would much rather DS, supply drops, and the similar have their gibbing features completely removed rather than completely barring any usage of them in combat.
Additionally, if we can assume that this applies to XvH, then could we also not apply this to HvX? In which case shooting and killing a xeno is round removing them since they have no direct revival mechanic. And if the counter to this point is that xenos can get another larva, then a human gibbing would not be round removal either since they can either A. get an ERT/Foxtrot or B. Become a xeno.
I’ve also wondered about this too but never bothered to ask. I kind of just ignore that rule outside of HvH because it never really made any sense to me. I’ve knocked marines under the Dropship as it’s landing before and I always just assumed that’s allowed.
If it’s true that knocking someone under a supply drop or dropship is against the rules then what else does it apply to? Is it against the rules to use Fling to throw a marine down the ASRS during hijack?
What if I slash head vs a helmetless marine with the hope of maybe rolling an RNG decap?
If “preventing them from being treated” is griefing then am I breaking the rules every time I attack medics as Runner or Lurker?
What if I Fling someone far into the burn water in Trijent? That makes them much harder to recover, is that against the rules? What if I drag someone into OB white fire? All that burn damage could be the difference between a medic reviving them in time or not.
I would ask about guarding bodies in general but as far as I’m aware that was explicitly ruled to be allowed at some point as long as you’re not metagaming the exact perma timer, is that a special exception for some reason?
I believe King’s jump ability also gibs, is that against the rules? Predalien can gib too, is that against the rules?
Also it’s weird that for Yautja it says “by the nature of being antagonists” they can perma people. Are xenos not antagonists?
It also says for Yautja “may permanently remove Marines and Xenos from the round”. Notice how it specifies Xenos. Does that imply Xenos are normally protected by this rule? Can marines not perma kill Xenos because it’s not specified for them? What does that even mean? As the OP mentions, xenos have no revival mechanic. So why even mention that Yautja can perma Xenos?
As I said, I’ve always just ignored this rule because the implications of what is written is so ridiculous it can’t possibly be true. It can’t possibly be true that a Lurker attacking a medic is “griefing”. I think the fact that I have to ignore a rule like that because I genuinely don’t know what it means is a sign that it’s badly written.
I would hope and believe that would not run you afoul of the rules. I do agree some clarification would be nice. Interesting topic. Can’t wait to see how it develops.
yeah people shouldn’t be punished for clever use of environment to permakill someone in the enemy team. Pushing people under Alamo, into the pit, flinging them into OB should be fully legal. The rule serves virtually no purpose.
i think the difference primarily comes from the ability to be revived versus getting instantly killed with barely any recourse
clips like what OP posted in the other thread are crazy sick, happen never, and are deserving of praise
i also bet it was legitimately one of the most frustrating experiences the other side had of all time, because there’s hardly any counterplay to it aside from “just don’t stand in a spot you MIGHT get fucked over in”
i think it could stand to be rephrased better too but the marine loop isn’t getting killed and being permanently dead forever. marines have revivals for a reason.
Marines deserve this sort of punishment, if they’re A. Dropping crates in an unfortified position B. Letting xenos next to the supplies and C. Standing next to where the crate is dropping after facilitating A and B.
A common sense approach is that: Don’t go out of your way to directly harm a defenceless corpse. But that probably could use a small clarification and different wording that xenos are already almost completly foolproofed and incapable of doing something against that rule with the exception being Queen’s gib (on a long cooldown) and warrior’s ability (just denying a cap, thus actually harming xenos, guy would perma in the hive anyway due to larvae bursting, can’t do anything to a corpse).
Killing a marine and then not doing anything else to a corpse, while guarding it. The gameplay loop of marines is having loses, but being able to recover them if they can regain the territory on which dead marines to transport their bodies. Anything that skips that important part of xenos having to guard the bodies (and isn’t directly allowed, which is Queen’s gib and warrior’s ability) is a no-no.
Because of a long cooldown, long windup and the most important xeno player stopping doing anything just for that. But yeah, probably should be added to the rules. Command players can more, but we live in a world with no balls to whitelist queens, they are allowed that from the get-go.
Just to punish marines who are careless enough to stumble into it. There is really no purpose for DS, or crate to gib anything other than to fuck with newbies unfortunate enough to stumble into it. Crate gibbing is probably a stupid Metal Gear Solid reference.
Because those hazards don’t incapacitate, but outright round remove. There was a clip posted on that thread this is referencing, that marine would require more effort to remove for the round on xenos if not for that crate. It was unintended. It is not hard to imagine if more of that gibbing dangers were present in caves, or xeno hive, where simple cheap HEDP grenade changed from a stun device requiring a follow-up to basically one-shot kill, then that is an unintended problem. What if caves had a feature that explosives cause a cave-ins so that grenadier spec can cause and then HEDP juggle like 85% HP T3s into them for instakill. Would that be cool?
But then what will punish newbies for being newbies to satisfy somebody’s sick desires?
You don’t go out of your way to round remove said xeno. If they have no direct revival mechanic, then they are incapable of having this rule broken for them. With exceptions being grieffing neutral colony synth who would find a crit xeno on weeds and move it off it.
Pretty sure you could technically return power to req and then bring the elevator up to find a revivable corpse.
This is just rule-lawyering. You slash the only unarmored part of a marine, it is on them that it happens, you didn’t do anything you wouldn’t do to a helmeted marine.
Nope.
It is not considered griefing to ignore dead hostiles, only to take action to prevent them being treated.
Example to above could be shooting a revivable player’s corpse until you rip their head off.
You can’t do anything to a corpse to prevent it from being treated, you can fight allies of the corpse so that they won’t treat it. Might require a slight wording adjustment.
Much harder to recover, but not impossible. There is a difference however between flinging alive marine into the water from dragging a corpse into it. Former seems completly legal, while latter does not. Dragging alive marines into white fire might be something worth debating over. On the one hand it shouldn’t be on player to know what does what damage to not break a rule.
Most likely not, but rules weren’t updated for them, predalien doesn’t happen outside admeme shenanigans anyway.
On a regular SS13 server they would be antags. But on CM there are two types of protagonists - Marines and xenos. They are just hostile factions and that is the premise. If regular SS13 had two rival stations that fight eachother, none of them would be antags.
Because preds are unique in that they aren’t outright hostile faction and mostly act neutral.
Permanent Removal is, “Griefing is the intent of one player wanting to cause grief or annoyance to other players or the server without a valid roleplay reason.”
Xenos can only remove someone by:
Queen gibing. Obviously this is not against the rules because it is a game mechanic, even though not specifically exempted.
Random Decaps. Going for random decaps on marines would violate the rule as written, but has happened since time immemorial and no one is getting notes from decaping marines as a solo backliner lurker so obviously this would be fine under the rule.
Pushing Marines into environmental obstacles that make it actually or nominally impossible for them to be recovered, e.g., gibbing on the Alamo or throwing the Marine into poop water. This is a bit closer to being against the spirit of the rule, but has been practiced for so long unless there’s a specific rule update I would imagine thats not how this rule has been enforced.
Guarding Marine Corpses. I don’t know if this is actually against the rules or not. Lurkers often hang around areas where they’ve killed people. While this does prevent the person from being treated, lurkers have the simple RP goal of killing the people who try to come treat the person. Additionally, its well established Xenos can guard a corpse while the Queen comes to gib it.
From this, we can establish two things.
Xenos almost always have an RP reason to hang out around marine bodies, or permanently remove them.
Xeno abilities are specifically mentioned among the exceptions to the rule, so Xenos are supposed to have some limitation.
Therefore the only situation where this rule seems to apply to Xenos is when a builder somehow tries to hide or build around a body such that it is hidden from sight. This is probably the only scenario where the xenos would not have an RP reason for hanging out around the corpse and killing people.
This is a pretty rare scenario, so I agree that there needs to be some rule clarification here.
Rule Lawyering aside. Dragging people under the falling supply crates or landing dropships is pretty lame and scummy. Someone fucking around and then findingout is soulful. Apply a similar reasoning to this topic as to the yautja whitelist with the “spirit of the whitelist” clause when it comes to round removing others
I don’t think it makes any sense to even compare xenos and preds. Preds are spectators+ giving challenge to those who want it, while xenos are here to destroy you. It’s their goal to perma you. Capping you is also permaing you.
I think it is fundamentally ridiculous to restrict the tools the Xeno can use to perma you. To be honest, I don’t even think walling should be illegal since CIC has constant vision of downed marines and can simply just tell marines to hack the resin down to get to them.
Unless it is the intent of the Staff to enforce a sub-human level of intelligence on the Xenomorphs, ignore the fact this is not first contact for either species, or imply Xenos don’t learn, there should be no restriction on how the Hive or USCM deals with their enemies.
Permanently removing a player from the round by using brute force, or preventing them from being treated, is considered as griefing, even if they belong to a hostile faction.
Don’t intentinally gib people. Thats it. There’s other cases such as for marines preventing each other getting revived there sure but the main one we care about is don’t gib folks on purpose. Real easy. Oh what about the queen gib or warrior decaps? They’re round removals too.
Queen’s Banishment, Battlefield Executions, Authorized Executions, and Warrior’s ability, are exceptions to this rule and are evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
Sure it doesn’t exactly state the queen gib here but reading between the lines is really really easy. If you have an ability that directly can remove someone? you can use it! So long as you’re mindful about it Preds are here.
Whitelisted Yautja players, by the nature of being antagonists, may permanently remove Marines and Xenos from the round. Yautja Council and Staff can review situations that may go against the spirit of the whitelist and take action if necessary.
No one is going to care about you removing a marines head as a warrior but if you’re dragging someone under the dropship or a crate. No matter which side that may be? Marines, xenos, surv, UPP, fucking clowns its caught under this very basic rule and for good reason too, its shitty behaviour. Absolute bad faith slop and yes Marines can be just as bad. Looking at you claymore with a million throwing knifes.
There is leniency for accidents. Way back a surv reported a drone for dragging under the dropship when the drone was trying to get a last cap in, they faced no punishment. Shit happens but just don’t go out of you way to gib someone, its easy. OT grenades and OBs gib plenty and its fine because they’re “usually” not on purpose. There’s no underhanded things here, its pretty straight and narrow. In otherwords? just don’t be a dick.
It is strange to see a once in a blue moon occurrence, like, rarer than decaps (which is and has been a mechanic for since the dawn of CM) to be against the rules.
If staff dont want gibbings like this, just remove it rather than having an unwritten vague rule people are not aware of.
Personally, I think moments like this are incredibly memorable and entertaining. I still remember being one shot decapped by a ravager charge almost 6 years ago when telling my squad “Don’t worry, stick with me and everything will be fine” and instantly losing my head, and watching their reactions as they fought out of old ice colony underground.
So yeah, I like these things, but if staff don’t want them, they should address it mechanically…
…or clarify specific situations so the community knows about it. (If it truly was made a rule 3 years ago and nobody is aware of it, that’s an issue itself)
To add about corpse guarding or gibbing, i assumed that has to do with metagaming, because xeno HUD cant tell between a revivable marine and perma marine, its the knowledge only player knows not the character per say. so you cant sit at a corpse and then leave after 5 minutes because timer ran out because thats not IC information. to me this is very vague and stupid, but thats besides the point, which is that if xeno players should act on IC knowledge then why does queen gib and warrior decap exist? if the IC goal it to kill a human, why spend time on a very long windup ability with all risk involved to kill other than just slash to death? if IC xenos cant tell between revivable and perma marines then why are there such abilities that make sure target is unrevivable? of course for every player is basic meta information that removing a spec from a round is huge advantage so you want them unrecoverable at any cost. I dont even know if thats a thing anymore and maybe im just spouting nonsense, but this is very contradicting and a hollow rule that barely ever get enforced. its in a limbo of youre by rules not suppose to calculate or think about marine revival mechanic, but everyone does it anyway. my take is to just officialy make knowledge of potential recovery and revive part of xenos IC strategy just like xenos can IC tell apart riflemen, medics, specialists and inteligence officers, if that has not been done already
See, I think this is soul. It’s a good narrative, it’s a cool story, and there was counterplay involved that would stop the decap from happening.
The clip OP posted is him lurker pouncing someone and throwing him under the falling crate before anyone could react simply because he made the mistake of… Falling back and healing?
I don’t mind dying and getting perma’d in the game about one faction kililng the other but I can’t imagine anyone has fun with that kind of death except the person who caused it. I said eariler in a post above but Marine gameplay loop revolves around not being instantly permanently killed with no ability to come back, and while decaps happen (WEAR A FUCKING HELMET AND IT WON’T HAPPEN) and warrior decap is even more rare (just cap bro come on), it feels like an unintended feature (exploit isn’t quite the right word…) that just fucks over people in general.
Crate gibbing shouldn’t even exist. I’m not even a fan of the dropships gibbing. They both just feel like noob traps that add nothing to the game except once every 20 rounds you see somone’s gear piled up inside an Alamo tile and go “oh hey” and move on with your life. They serve no purpose other than roundending some poor PVT because they didn’t know standing in a tile for too long would instantly gib them.
