Welcome to the camp, I know why you all are here.
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Honestly there are a couple “bad faith” actors that hop into any thread like this and instantly play devils advocate. It’s exhausting how everyone just has to tolerate it. Everyone knows and no one wants to say. Can we just poll these changes so these champions of morality/paragons of virtue can see that most of us just wanna play a cool game, shoot bugs, and don’t care?
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I said it to one party and now I’ll say it to the other. Please disagree with each other respectfully. Management can be a bunch of janny trash, but please be nice to each other. There’s only like MAYBE 300 people total who give a single shit about this community, let’s please show a little respect to one-another.
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Biolock, I sincerely thank you for taking the time to engage with this post. I recognize you have been a part of this community with interruption for a significantly longer period than me. It takes a good man to engage like this. You have my utmost thanks.
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Yeah. Jesus fucking Christ, let’s just put an end to this “no popular support” and “vocal minority” thing.
Just do a series of highpop polls throughout a day, average the results, boom. We have a sample poll representative of the community as a whole.
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Given that reports aren’t like notes and they’re typically a public affair it is a bit weird.
I assume there’s a reason for it though.
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I honestly think its because of how much of a ballache it is to post them in a good format.
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It’s because it takes infinitely longer to format them and strip them of all sensitive information (IPs, CIDs, Ckey-Character connections) so that they can be viewed publicly than it is to review them directly in our logs. It’s also not remarkably useful for the actual reviewer who will need to go back into the logs and verify information that was stripped.
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Bio I wanna say a good bunch of us see your point and hear you but I have to play devil’s advocate here and ask.
While this helps staff it as a effect is a move away from transparency that people would like to have. As long as I have been here logs being posted have been a part of the reporting processes. Not doing this will leave people wondering what happened in logs, things that were really said by X person or Y person, etc etc.
This is all coming after management tried to ban “deltard” and against well huge backlash the banning of it was undone. My point being this looks to be also coming at a wrong time, given the recent month or so drama we as a community have all been through, some more then others and well they are gonna be people that are really gonna fight back against this IMHO. I for one really hope we dont all lose our marbles any more but again there will be people that come after this decision.
You have told us why this is happening and again thank you for that, but I would like to ask not just for myself but for others, how are staff and you going to try convince and or assure this is not the intent behind all this. People will be wondering and I feel atleast they are owed that much.
Thank you for your time.
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Maybe I just find it boring and skip over it besides reading the admin summary of it but does anyone actually read the logs when theyre posted? theyre usually stupid long and have so much irrelevant info/is just stuff thats already in the standard report. Like im not trying to fight against the crowd but is it something people actually care about?
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Only when its funny. Ive gotten dms from people who enjoy the logs in some of the reports ive been in
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If the actual report looks drama enough, I usually read them, they can be quite funny. (and yes, you are trying to fight against the crowd)
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A lot of people read logs. It’s a server tradition.
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Pulling logs is incredibly time consuming and tedious, you can also end up spending a massive amount of time trying to pretty up the logs for the forums.
Actually reading the raw logs is easy in comparison.
Personally, the only reason you’d pull logs is for transparency purposes as I feel there is little practical value in someone pulling them outside of having a second person checking logs in case you missed something, but you don’t need someone to pull logs to do that when they could just read the logs themselves.
We are still pulling logs for whitelist issues since councillors generally are not staff members ergo they can’t do their own log diving.
A lot of people read logs. It’s a server tradition.
True. On the one hand log pulling feels more like some form of entertainment more than a public service.
But on the other hand log pulls can help contextualize a situation.
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While it is indeed entertaining it’s also useful to be able to see real examples of how rules are enforced. That said I think it would be good enough for staff to just give a summary and maybe a few specific lines that are vital to the verdict. Don’t get me wrong full log pulls are still better but if a compromise has to be made then fair enough.
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Yeah, I always read the logs cause they’re funny, and that way I can form my own opinion on the ruling based off the evidence instead of just assuming the staff are right.
I think the latter is quite important, though I see why its a pain in the ass.
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Did management ever come up with a response to what happened here? I’d check the Discord chat, but I was permabanned with no warning for the unforgivable sin of making several jokes about the “r-slur” ban during the janitorial purge.
I just see Grim locking every thread. Did I miss the response? My apologies if so.
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I also enjoyed reading some logs, but that was typically only a matter of
“I never called him a rat fucker!”
Someone who just got off a shift at work trying to pull multiple strings of context together:
“Here are the logs.”
0:37 Jimmy Blood: "You're a rat fucker!"
In the case where someone fucks-up, I really don’t see what difference seeing text instead of a screenshot or recording really makes, or why it amounts to any more than “bro, trust me” when the results of either are going to be the same and the recourse of riding out the punishment or making a spite staff complaint/appeal remain the same.
I feel that some of my own reports are good examples, since they are “this bothered me enough that I brought receipts so we don’t need to worry much about logs anyways” or “yeah everything you said was true, we’re just exhaustively posting each line for the sake of it” (though Silencer was still a dear for their color-coding and effort). Staff has gotten more active in cleaning-up squabbles, but it’s not like even with logs being posted people didn’t have eight-layered arguments in the replies.
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Of course logs are important. I don’t see how this is even a question. They are needed for many reasons: as an evidence, for people both involved and uninvolved to understand the full context, to set up a clear precedent, as grounds for staff reports, etc. I understand that it’s time consuming and I don’t have a solution, but in some reports I’ve been involved absence of evidence was really confusing.
For example there was a report about a synth moving to hive (east caves) instead of LZ2 (robotics, LV, so, like, opposite parts of the map, literally) during nuke. I clearly remember that happening. But councillor who resolved the report said that the synth was moving towards LZ2 and there are plenty of logs supporting that. Logs that were not shown. I am supposed to take this by word. In reality, I just feel decieved, I feel like the councillor is biased, logs they found behind the closed doors are not full/incorrect, someone who was pulling the logs didn’t care/didn’t take effort, etc. But maybe I am really wrong and there is evidence? Now we will never know, and the trust is damaged. Yeah, councillors aren’t staff, but I don’t think there is much of a difference in the context. People are not going to just believe that they are wrong without being shown proofs.
So tl;dr logs are not just about fun.
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