Another good and simple way might be to add extra melee skill to survs w/ adrenaline, so that they can 1 shot weed nodes with knives and fight walls/doors better (idk if that’s actually how melee skill works, but if so its kinda cool). A lot of the fun of old surv fighting was because of how dangerous it is to approach them offweeds (especially since they usually held near lz) but that got axed once lz weeding became possible early round.
not set in stone but one of the ideas we’re toying with is removing manually spreading weeds pre-drop, you can build doors and whatnot on weeds as normal. Weeds spawn in the hive areas and slowly creep towards the LZs on their own as the predrop progresses. (Likely would be coupled with something that makes survs slower/less effective on weeds-- their shoes get stuck in it!)–
the reasoning here is that fighting on weeds is generally just suicide for even large groups of marines, rather than running around clicking weeds as drones encircle you with them this would encourage xenos to skirmish for a bit and then have to run back t o cover to recuperate and regen plasma etc-- also helps with spitters following you forever spitting at you from the dark, for example.
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This is an idea I’m partial to specifically because of how we want pacing to go for the round, the less time the xenos have to build up heavy defenses directly in front of and around the LZs in anticipation of Marine drop, the better. I think the issue we might see in practice immediately is controlling survivor pacing when not being disrupted so frequently by weeds, and also being able to chase things much easier. We’ll see how it goes.
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Xenos can’t really do that anymore with the Gas, and you could go even further with the Gas, make it cover a larger area, it’s a really good way of stopping Xenos from building around the FOB, I think maps don’t go far enough, NV for example, it should be a lot further down to stop Xenos from building anywhere near the LZ’s at the start.
Perfect gameplay loop that no one (excluding current survmains) will complain about. Xenos don’t die if they aren’t brainless and survivors can hold on their own with that high adrenaline cat and mouse play and actually can survive long enough to be rescued by marines. And with most of survs having weapon skill 0, they wouldn’t even be a PFC+.
Think of Newt. Soul.
The issue of what should happen to survs when they are rescued by marines is out of the scope for both rework ideas.
Might tweak it a bit, the mechanic I had in mind in preventing survivors sitting in one area/spot would be “scent”, which directs xenos to a general location and is more precise (and seen from bigger distance) the longer you sit in there.
If you try to hide in a locker every five minutes, you have to make a bit of noise and actually go somewhere, which risks you getting spotted while traveling, which might result is a high adrenaline chase.
If they want to fight and hunt, they could, so that survivor atleast has two playstyles. Altough xenos aren’t supposed to die pre-drop unless they just decide to stupid and stubborn, or AFK. The simplest way to achive that is if xenos receive enough damage (some arbitrary ammount of "shield damage) they lose ability to harm and almost all of their combat skills, but still can shove for a quick stun on a survivor and also xenos then receive a speed boost.
If Survivors decide to go violent and sit all in the same spot, they are going to be quickly found out and entire hive (any xeno that wants to) would just go straight for them for easy pickings.
And those “makeshift weapons” would be mostly melee, occasional weak flamethrowers and stuff like that, nothing to actually kill a xeno, unless it decides to stay despite not being able to do anything to survivors further.
That is what I had in mind. The idea was always to force xenos to flee back to the hive so they give survs some breathing room and time to go somewhere else, but never to die.
Real counter to xenos grouping up is that they can’t check that much area and there could be a mechanic for that “survivor sense” where the more xenos are grouped up, the bigger is radious where survs can detect them in order to avoid. Even makes sense with MD, as big swarm of xenos makes a lot more disturbance than single does.
In perfect scenario half of the hive goes to the colony to melt and break stuff while occasionaly stumbling on survivors and giving a chase.
Just go alone into some remote part of the colony as a PFC, lol. The same, but even more hardcore as xenos have T3s now.
A reason why surv rework is needed. Not some mere small nerfs, or buffs. Big rework. Either Isolation style, or Dead by Daylight style.
We shouldn’t force it down to a common PFC, or a xeno. But for other roles? Hell yeah, they should RP a bit.
Like it hasn’t been done before. Researcher became some stim and experimental stuff vending machine while in the past he was just a RP doctor role without any responsability, free to pursue any goal, they could make potassium+water satchel charges, RP dissecting xenos and things like that.
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Nobody wants to locker hide and nobody considers that any kind of interesting or rewarding gameplay in any kind of way. The only people who do it, are either not confident in their ability to survive in any other way, or people who know it’s a really good chance of surviving and getting to the ship, rather then risking meeting up with the others and fighting it out.
Luckily your idea of what survivors should be won’t ever come to pass, hiding in a locker for 15 minutes is never going to be the standard, it’s just what you want, not what will happen.
Another note, I don’t know why you think if hiding became the standard, survivors wouldn’t just be instantly found, if the Xenos know that’s all they can do. I suppose that’s what you want judging by your responses. You really just seem to want survivors to be another form of smalls, basically boiling the role down to nothing.
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Roll in the clown music:
Please, tell me again how much I want survivors to hide in a locker for 15 minutes after reading those quotes from my previous posts.
What I really want is their removal. That is my main goal. If this can’t be achieved (and it can’t) then the next close thing is for them to not impact marine vs xeno gameplay, be it directly, or indirectly, with nerfs, or buffs.
Then on a thrid place is making survivor gameplay unique, interesting, soul and close to the movies/games/other media.
What really I am achieving here is a smoke screen for Thwomper’s rework. All of my ideas would never be implemented anyway, so their deconstruction is meaningless and wastes both time, effort, thumbs down and patrice reactions of survmains. All of that while Thwomper will do god’s work with his rework with as little backlash from survmain community as possible before he does.
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What a remarkably good-faith argument. Someone give this guy a community award for outstanding contributions.
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That’s all these changes ever really boil down to in the end. If you dig deeper with anyone’s proposed changes, their real opinions always come back to this, rather then suggesting anything creative or fun, anything that will enhance the survivor experience, or even just CM in general, it’s all about playing favorites.
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It is because nobody truly likes survivors besides surv mains. If not for “improve not remove” rule, they would have been gone for good.
The most oppressed minority - survivors.
But I disagree with the “ideas don’t suggest anything creative”. Isolation, or Dead By Daylight in SS13 engine is creative. What surv mains think of a “creative, fun, or anything that will enhance the survivor experience”? Just more bullshit OP gear spawned on maps so they can kill young runners and feel good about it.
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Ah yes, the most reasonable and sound argument to make. “I do not like X, therefore we must remove it” - is truly the kind of logic you are unable to beat, because the person saying it values their own fun over fun of other people. First they ask to remove survivor, then remove OT, afterwards they remove research… Hell, they’ll ask to force WL players to not have any game impact as well, because their fun got ruined when the entire hive got exterminated after xenomorphs got a predalien.
Please, for your own sake and sake other people, play other servers if your fun is being ruined and do not ruin the fun of the people playing Space Station 13: Colonial Marines. Thank you.
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The order is all messed up. I already voiced my opinion that OT should be removed no questions asked beforehand. While Research can stay, Stims gotta go, or be severly nerfed, not “balanced” by RNG.
The “chudator” incident has already happened. It is not about my fun, though. Over my time of playing CM, I have seen predalien only once and it died to marines if my memory serves me right.
How am I ruining your fun? You read my post about how I don’t like survs and this will haunt your every surv round of CM, as a looming presence? And I do play other servers. Paradise, PvE and TGMC.
And the one I didn’t make. Yes, I want them removed, but I know they won’t, so I know it is pointless. I just mentioned that this is my main goal, “plan A” so to speak.
Why words are constantly put in my “mouth”? There are so many strawman arguments in this thread that it feels like a cornfield.
No, Thwomper’s rework isn’t removing Survs. No, “Alien: Isolation” idea wouldn’t remove survs.
My subjective opinion is that survivor isn’t liked because I don’t like it either and that there were multiple issues with them over the years from many angles. This was presented as explanation to:
“If you dig deeper with anyone’s proposed changes, their real opinions always come back to this, rather then suggesting anything creative or fun, anything that will enhance the survivor experience, or even just CM in general, it’s all about playing favorites.”
Please, show me where I argued (before this post) for removing Survivors. If you can’t, admit that you made a strawman.
Whole TLDR of whatever I posted was: I don’t like current state of surv, I don’t think proposed rework is that good, but surerly better than current state, I propose “Alien: Isolation” idea for CM survs.
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I wonder how loot will fit into all this. The current surv meta is to speedrun to all the best loot locations (which you’ve memorised), e.g. metal, thermals, good firearms, booze (molotovs), etc.
You propose to change this to speedrunning for objectives instead- That is, ‘fuel’ or other items required to access saferooms and get your much-needed RP downtime before xenos evolve T2/3 and wipe you.
Obviously metal availability will be utterly destroyed (Chances is probably one of the most cancerous maps in terms of metal sheets everywhere), thus forcing you to roam and therefore be highly vulnerable to the impending T2/3 threat.
Survival is extremely difficult if you decide to keep roaming, but doable, so fraggers can still frag out. If you have the time, you can probably scavenge metal with tools, but it’s a long process and gives few mats.
Molotov spam become less of an issue because roaming means no lugging around booze or crates, though you can just make them near the vendor and pack them in your bag I guess.
However, if high-value items like thermals continue to exist, it doesn’t solve the current problem of survs speedrunning those first, while xenos dronerush to melt them before survs can reach them.
Do you therefore plan on just spawning survivors with the gear they require (so better starting loadout, but delete USCM firearms and high-value loot)? That way survs will focus mainly on objectives, and looting becomes secondary, since loot will just be extra ammunition, medical supplies, food or whatever.
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I have a contributor working on that aspect of NV, because I totally agree. My main concern is that Marines in certain places don’t have any reason to go down alternative paths, so Xenos get the advantage of orienting their structures in an ideal way, but Multi-Z and other things should do good to quell that. Creeping up weed zones during pre-round would also do to curb any sort of metagaming towards Survivors.
Horror gameplay is awesome, but locker hiding is not it. I’d sooner let xenos have X-ray vision to people in lockers than do something to encourage it outright.
I have some additional ideas that Morrow and I were workshopping back in the day for like, Isolation style makeshift traps and weapons and such for survivors to be able to craft and give them some utility on the move, to either distract or impede the Xenos chasing them around. I can talk on that stuff more later.
Not happening, not even I want this. Survivors have the potential to become a great feature in this game, and something that all players can enjoy with a moderate level of accessibility, as well as being great entertainment for Xenos pre-drop. Management and I have been pretty clear about wanting to make Survivors better fit the game.
I suppose it could go either way. Players could prioritize loot and get behind on the objective, or prioritize the objective and try to get loot on the way. In my head, the most resourceful players are rewarded, instead of the players with the most map knowledge.
I’m considering it, but I’m hoping to see how it goes in a baseline state before building onto it.
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Nobody would really listen to my opinion, but I feel like I should insert it anyways just to give one more perspective on this.
I think the current issue some xeno mains have with survs is the fact that they want them gone from round quickly and get additional larva as soon as possible, first of all. Welp, it is an opinion I have heard about from some people at the very least.
Another thing I feel very weird about is the forced RP aspect of current CM development cycle. Synths on their way of being gutted rn to “promote roleplay”, and survs are about to “be adjusted” with this weird adrenaline thing, which kind of follows the same direction. Anyways - forcing roleplay on what is essentially a TDM server is kind of stupid, if you ask me. The whole “a civilian wouldn’t go down the surface after getting rescued” argument pretty much boils down to the fact that CM, as of now - is a TDM server first, yet there are multiple attempts being made to “force roleplay” upon the populace.
One more thing - the weird way of devs actually balancing the game. I really am not seeing a proper direction right here, which feels a bit odd from a standpoint of a person who plays both xenos and marines in somewhat equal measure. Although - I guess it has to do with the fact that the current idea and concept of survivors and their place in the game are not defined proper at all. Food for xenos, separate role, entertainment for xenos for first 20 minutes of the round?
Plus - the current meta of survivors wasn’t really formed by survivors themselves, but by xenomorph mechanics and capabilities. Survs are forced to “metagame” by going to loot spots because most primes would do the same, likely while still being a larva just so they can melt all valuables. Fire meta stems from the fact that half the colony guns are essentially shit and don’t do anything to T2s at all. Same applies to sentinel rushes and the stun-oriented combat, which makes roaming almost impossible on specific maps as 3 sentinels can demolish an entire surv group not behind the barricades (neuro immunity where).
Overall - the idea sounds extremely underbaked and against whatever current survivor mains are enjoying. The current RP direction literally sounds like “loud minority forcing their thing on everyone else”.
That’s it for now, I suppose.
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@vitoras. Do not hate on your self. I may disagree with you but I can see the logic of your argument. You have been respectful and not devolved to personal attacks on people. This is how honest criticism should be presented.
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Faith restored. Every discussion on survs that I remember has had some amount of “survs are just there to die” when there’s just so much potential to work with. Appreciate the effort going into this, hopefully can pay it back with some good stories when all is said and done.
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What the fuck
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currently as a survivor your starting weapon is more or less binary, either you get a solid gun with a full belt of mags that carries you through the hold or you spawn with a laughably shit handgun and like one mag for it.
Preliminary plan on the whiteboard is to standardize surv spawned weapons around a sorta bell curve of effectiveness, on average you get a reasonable gun and a couple mags for it, if you’re lucky you might get a better one, if you’re unlucky maybe a worse gun or no ammo for it.
Something less conceptual is that static gun spawns are going bye-bye, they will be replaced with weapons spawners with random weapons that are similarly weighted. Similar spawners will be introduced for other items of interest. Think Day-Z or a battle royale game, it’ll be reasonably easy to find a good enough weapon but by looking around and exploring you have the potential to find more for it or a better one.
ATM I don’t want to sink time into rebalancing the individual surv weapons beyond triage, because tthe current surv weapons mostly don’t make any sense lore/setting wise or are relics of bygone ages with no balance PRs made for them for years. Hope is to get assets for lore accurate weapons that would be around colonies and implement those as entirely new guns which are subtypes of, and balanced relative to their USCM counterparts.
UA maps like new varadero will likely have pulse rifles and M37s, and TWE maps will hopefully move to guns more fitting that setting, instead of a random japanese-british colony 160 years in the future from today using m16s in their armories because yes.
Basically, the loot scavenger hunt as a survivor is something that makes the role fun and unique, deciding how much risk to take and how long to stay out, whether to hit one more building for some mags before going for a hold and risking seeing bigger xenos is a thrill that we don’t want to remove, rather we want to improve the replayability and the accessibility of that system by introducing randomness, rather than both sides knowing you need to hit mining caves for the giga xenofucker9000, both sides can be incentivized to consider exploring and securing multiple buildings, because each one could have the xenoplabber 8000 in it.
Metal’s going to be basically nuked yes, even if there is metal it will be less useful because of the goals outlined in the FOB rework. My current intention is to make sandbags a sort of “misc” spawner item that can appear around the map, allowing you to quickly throw down makeshift defenses to secure chokepoints and areas and buy some time to scavenge, this could potentially allow for a classic style survivor “hold” with sandbags which is not an undesired consequence, but the ideal is that the meshing of different systems means not every round is loot a ton of sandbags → sit in a corner with guns on the LZ.
Molotovs are being nerfed in both strength and number with a PR that’s up right now, with the proposed weeding changes fire becomes VERY dangerous so flamers and molotovs are something you’ll get rarely from spawners, 1 or 2 molotovs might spawn on a rack for example, allowing you to basically deny an area for a long time (molotovs still last a long time).
thermals and other spec-tier items are going bye-bye in a PR that is currently up on the repo. looking into giving survs slightly better lighting options to compensate bc. trying to fight when you can only see 3 tiles ahead of you with a shit flashlight is not fun for anyone.
this post strikes me as somewhat bad faith, nobody is forcing you to roleplay, there is no requirement to enter the safehouse (though it will increase your chances of playing the rest of the round!) and nobody is forcing you to become a CO whitelist holder roleplayer the moment you enter it, you’re totally welcome to just get up and grab a drink or take a leak while you wait for marines-- just like marines who afk on the dropship before drop. It’s a 5-10~ minute lull in the game as a tradeoff for a far more action packed and exciting run up to that, with more fair and engaging combat than drones weeding circles around you or sentinels 1koing you.
if you see larvascouting ahelp it, the fact some players might break the server rules is not a balance consideration. I will look into larva spawns to mechanically prevent this another time. (e.g., if the hive locations all spawn weeded and interconnected larva can be locked on weeds for most of the round, given them leaving hive is a rulebreak in most scenarios.)
almost every caste in the game dies from a few shotgun shots and almost every map has buckshot, t2s are not “immune” to surv guns in the slightest. moreso the overwhelming force of an OP gun is a large boon to killing a xeno before they can simply retreat into the darkness on the weeds where you cannot chase them. I can promise you I’ve tested literally every single gun that spawns on maps for survs as part of my PR, and most of them are fine. (granted the pistols that spawn in surv backpacks are usually worse than useless.)
To which you might say ‘oh but a lurker/warrior/etc can stun you and crit you in one pounce!’, and to which we will respond it is a team game work with your team.
Ultimately we are not going to make a game that sucks and kills survs every round, and we will do what needs to be done with the balance to accomplish that. The planned adrenaline system allows us to do whatever we need to do to surv stats to make them able to survive in the early game with the promise it won’t turn them into PFC+ gods once marines land and they add real armor and guns to their stats(the issue with the old end5 survs)
I suggest broadening your horizons when you consider this kinda stuff, most of the coders who care enough about surv gameplay to put their love and effort into a rework like this aren’t going to just make the game unplayable for them. a “xeno coder” who hates survs isn’t going to pitch a well thought out rework to change the gamemode they’re just going to make survs spawn with broken legs or something.
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I like most of these ideas but im wondering what the need for the adrenaline mechanic really is, when survivors have very similar skills to their marine counterpart, (comtech/engi survivor, doctor/corpsman, and sec survivor with nearly identical skills to an mp with the exception of medical 1)
I’ve basically played engineer exclusively, have always enjoyed setting up cades and making elaborate plans or doing something goofy post-survival with marines. I never felt that this made me a “PFC+ god” because the only thing that differentiated you from a marine and survivor at one point was the fact that you are fighting t1 and t2 almost exclusively.
Im definetly very happy to see thermals and gun spawns get a rework though, but I cant wrap my head around the justification or need for giving survivors reduced skills post survival, as you pointed out it is no longer a problem. I also do not see the need to debuff survivors once a safehouse is opened, regardless if they are in it or not, or holding somewhere in the colony (which is something stated in the original concept unless thats not happening)
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