Xeno balance and Queen impact

Development Ideaguys
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I feel like i want to spit some words about xeno balance in general, and how the Queen is kind eating up alot of what makes xenos fun, and instead turns it into a mad capping simulator when slots are filled and marines are satisfyingly pushed far in enough.

Queens and xeno balance in turn, is so heavilly scewed into this single player, that hives live and die just by how they play, few new players want to take over the roll, and on mid-lowpop dying as queen generally means a full game over, unless you have a decent built up cap supply and enough space to hold.

The queen should be a strong pawn in the arsenal of the xenos side, but IMO she should not be the end-all be-all of the hive, xenos dying if shes not a good player at the front, and winning if she is.

Some of the issues i find with the queen being so strong, and also the reasons she is often forced into being the “main character”:

  1. Shes one of the few can reliably counter pushes, and does so with incredible punishment, a bad marine push will lead to them getting screeched and caps being taken away, the neuro spit is basically the best 1v1 tool that exists, able to completely disable a marine and guarantee a cap
  2. No real punishment/loss on the xeno side if going out of ovi, queen pheros are limited away from your leads, but they will be following you anyway so that doesnt matter a whole lot, and others around will be plenty to throw out a bit of frenzy and warding into the mass of xenos

Queen is kind of the master of all, pheros, building, single target CC, multi target CC, biggest healthpool and a gibbing ability, no other xeno can even compare, its fine the queen is a strong caste but at the moment without a good queen player your impact as a xeno is highly limited down, and with them it instead gets a bit too easy, marines really need to have a strong plan and execute it quickly in order to win, its certainly not impossible but doesnt sit right IMO.

Heres what i would change:

  1. Remove queen screech, queen has a single target CC which is the strongest in the game, the only issue i foresee is getting swarmed and bodyblocked, letting queen stomp marines down like she does xenos might be needed
  2. Make xenos scary without the queen, stepping into literal close range combat with a ravager to unload your mk2 AP mag and trade a frac or two for a possible kill should be punished harder, possibly making t3s just hit harder accross the board, increased delimb chance, more slash damage etc. would all be pretty viable. Generally t3s struggle against a crowd, few tools exist to bring down more marines at a time then just one, and getting swarmed is very easy. It might also be viable to give the crushers 3 tile slash to all t3s, and see if their larger damage output would make them more scary in a group.
  3. Make getting of Ovi more punishing, remove egg morphers entirely, make all castes able to carry eggs, possibly allowing queen to select where to grow eggs would be workable as well on ovi, but the thought being that huggers/eggs come only from the queen, and from the carrier strain
  4. Let the queen select a “guaranteed slot” for t3 herself, or even let the regular t2 slots be controlled too, currently they are outdated, burrower guarantee is worthless as the caste is bad, and you will always need a hivey on your side, letting queen select say, two t2 slots would let you guarantee a hivey and carrier, and the t3 slot could guarantee a boiler, no de-evoing required and no begging needed

The biggest and most fiddly thing here would be space control, xenos cant really punish a push without a good boiler and without a queen scree you would want the others to be able to step up, you want them scary enough that a deathball feels like a bad idea, and making calculated pushes with coordinated CAS/OBs be the way to progress rather then just throwing men at a choke. Also notable is the reduced ease of getting caps, hives would be a bit smaller, and games hopefully a bit longer without xenos getting a steamroll with large cap totals.

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People suggest removing screech every once in a while.

Marines have the OB, mortar, CAS, SADAR, Stims, OT.

Queen screech gives xenos an “out“ and a way to recover if marines are correctly and successfully using these tools highly effectively and to make DEATH BALL not objectively the way to go.

What i do like the idea of is queens being able to choose their own reserves.

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Why is that a bad thing? It’s actually cool that we have such an impactful role in the game. It feels great to play as the Queen, it feels great to kill a Queen. Imagine if all xenos were drones.

While not a big punishment, still, losing pheros means it’s harder to sustain several fronts. No ovi also means no evo, so you gotta run out of higher tier xenos over time, which is quite bad. I feel like ovi impact is decent enough and there is no reason to massively change it.

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Yeah i agree, but it also makes a singular player extremely responsible for the hives function, id much rather have the rest of the xenos strong enough to saddle this responsibility over a group of say, 4-5 t3s, the issue isnt the scree itself, but that the mechanic is on the queen and not split among the xeno castes more evenly.

Its bad because it invalidates alot of other xeno castes, and players. To use your own analogy currently all xenos kind of are drones and the queen is the only relevant player, im arguing that everyone else should be stronger, and the queen weaker.

Full disagree, less pheros is only relevant for the leads, which will be by the queen anywho, backliners are the only ones to really suffer, and that playstyle is very dead in the meta currently. Stopping geting ovi is only relevant for your t2/t1s, who most likely all have full evo bars with the game just starting, later on sure its maybe got a value to not being on, but even then a mass of t1s will cap equally to a mass of t2s most of the time.

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Speaking as a queen main on the xeno side;

I think you’ve got a solid idea, however I don’t see how QUEEN would actually then be enjoyable whatsoever.

It sounds like she’d be an Ovibot hyperliability, where getting off ovi is just grief. What’s your thought process regarding that?

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There’s a long term goal of an eventual queen rework, no idea what ideas have been floated for it. That being said, the main issue is as it stands now the scree is the only thing that can stop a coordinated marine unga ball. Even higher lethality Xenos may not necessarily be enough to stop robust riflemen supported by stacked smartguns in the backline, with a sadar haunting the frontline looking for a hit on T3s every single time they go in.

There has to be a mechanic that can break up marine lines like that, and give Xenos a window to have counterplay. I haven’t really thought deeply about it, so I’m not sure what you’d even replace scree with, unless you were theorizing massively changing the overall game loop.

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It would be a large nerf on the caste yeah, atleast from the combat side, the thought behind the changes on getting off ovi is to have a tradeoff when stepping off, getting off ovi and sitting on the frontline shouldnt be the default standard choice of all queens, like currently were sitting on ovi and not being a very strong frontline piece is bordering on greifing as well.

In a perfect world the queen would be an impactful piece, without being the central piece. You would be commanding the hive, either from the front but costing you some downside by not being on ovi, or from ovi with more interaction and impact then current ovi does.

This would be paired with t3s/xenos in general having the tools which currently sit on the queen, ie multi targeting abilities, or some similar ability that counters marines stacked ontop of eachother.

Its not the only thing, but yes i agree, its a huge part and arguably the most reliable thing.

Higher lethality xenos would force a slightly more thoughtful approach, a rav still rips you to shreds at close range sure but now you dont get to magdump it as much, and the increased chance of getting delimbed with higher slash damage wouldnt be fun either.

And yes, i agree on the need for a mechanic to break up marines more, something other then just boiler, but there is plenty to draw from here, throw in a strain for spitters that throws out electric shocks, fucking with electronics and turning off IFF from smartguns for example, the previewed burrower strain had some spike shooting ability, kind of shit against a single marine but stacked up its harder to evade and everyones feet got spiked. Hell, make a prae strain with a huge tail that hits a large area with reasonable damage to spam around, almost all xenos are single target, built for combat with a queen to screech, then walk up and kill one dude and leave.
Default ravager hasnt gotten a change in idk how long, its only good because the stats on it are stupid and with queen you get to nuke one marine at a time for free, or assassinate a spec.

I dont think a massive change in the gameplay loop is needed, but you should feel like you have the ability to make plays as t3 with just the other t3/t2s without needing a queen to come scree, currently there is ALOT of waiting, reading information, and responding as xeno, its very difficult and rare you get a good place to actually commit without it being a queen that initiates for you (backline not included).

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I think a good idea for Queen screech replacement would be instead of stunning marines, it slows them for 5 seconds as well as gives all Xenos around her all max pheromones for 8 seconds, along with a 5 second speed boost and some temporary armor for all xenos in a smaller circle around her, acting as her “guard”.

The kicker is that the Queen is slowed for 3 seconds as well while screeching, which turns the ability away from a “I press this and win” button into a “initiate a push” button. More fitting of her leader role, and the self slowing puts some responsibility on the rest of the hive to perform well while the Queen is more vulnerable.

This also plays into the marine’s counter. If they target the Queen the rest of the hive will have an easier time mowing them down, but if they focus fire on the rest of the xenos marines the the Queen can easily escape and reposition herself for a flank or another attack. So marines will need to identify what they need to focus on based on where they are and how many xenos are with the Queen.

You may think this just encourages the hive to murder ball, but if all the Xenos are on the Queen, then the backlines may be ripe for flanking squads…

But I’m not a Queen main so idk if this sounds appealing. But I can say for a fact as a marine player I’d much rather engage with this system than a “fuck you don’t play for 5 seconds while we kill you” button.

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i mean you could make this same argument for specs, currently the game marine-side mostly just revolves around 4 powertripping protag roles and nobody cares about the rest. Like

can just as easily be applied to a SADAR or scout.

It’s horrible game and balance design. The difference is, if marines didn’t have those specs, they still have other counters, mortar, CAS, OB, CO protag gun, SGs, HPRs, grenades, flamethrowers, and the greatest advantage of sheer numbers.

Xenos have significantly less players, and less alternatives, but simultaneously a FAR GREATER NEED for flawlessly executed teamwork. While a good spec can sometimes solo or wipe half the hive, a good queen can’t do much against the ungatide alone. A screech is only as good as the xenos you have around you to follow up on it, if THEY’RE bad or you’re fighting alone its meaningless.

I do like the idea of reserving slots though

But removing screech has been talked about before, and it always boils down to a fundamental balance issue that impacts the entire game loop and that you can’t touch without also fixing a bunch of other dumb shit simultaneously.

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It could, and i even believe it should, but marines do a lot better in terms of sharing the power, SLs get the ability to throw around commands, marine CAS/OB/Mortar all need coordination with getting lazes and setting up in comms which leads to some taking the role of lazing.

The specs are specialized, as the name would imply, Sadar is specialized in taking down single targets effectively, but needs followup. Pyro has arguably the best area control, GL gets to demolish t2/t1s if nades hit well, scout is a single target duelist, and sniper is again there for punishing overextensions and area control.

The one case where i feel marines have the same issue as xenos do, is the CO/XO deploying, they have effectively the same amount of control as the queen does, sure they cant BE you but SLs must follow or (i think) its against RP rules, and if marines gather together more will come with them. COs also get a strong gun, very good personal stats, etc. etc.

I dont mind the specs being where they are currently, one very good and robust Sadar would be a bad time for the hive, however they are still counterable, and the match is still winable without them, unlike the queen who would die and xenos miss out on alot of core strengths.

True, the queen alone cant do much, but the impact of having a queen together with just a few good t3 players will win matches alone, the issue im having is that queens feel like they have too large of an impact on a single player, too much weight is placed on their shoulders, to the point were the rest is significantly weakened without this single players presence.

The problem isnt that queen has screech, the problem here is that the queen does too much too well. Replacing screech wouldnt change that, im saying the queen overall should be weaker, and less encouraged to be at the front as an upgraded t3, instead favoring the t3s and t2s to shoulder the front, and the queen having more impact and active play on ovi. Stepping out and frontlining would still be doable, but no screech means initiation must happen elsewhere, and the tools for it would be distributed among the other castes.

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I think an alternative to dealing with unga would be a “hammer and anvil” solution, maybe some way to fork and split marines attention on the main push

Maybe a burrower strain that can burrow behind the enemy push, set up a temporary resin shelter, and bring like 5-7 xenos with her. This could allow the burrower to take some of the burden and give it a reason to exist again.

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I’m actually not against making Queen an Ovi-Bot, makes Queen AI-like and if building wasn’t unfun in CM13 then could be fun - like Hivemind in TGMC

But, why to the rest of this? What’s the intended impact of removing morphers and how would Carrier / Queen make huggers?

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with a queen as an ovi-bot the rest wouldnt be necessary sure, but the role would be entirely dead and boring. The idea behind it is to make the queen a bit weaker when frontlining as she has the best available tools for the xenos rolled into a single caste, instead moving the tools

over to other xenos, mainly the thing i hear is queen screech being a single reason marines wont push a choke, maybe baring a boiler but they stil have good counters. Smaller AOE type abilities could be moved to other xenos, queen still in charge and gets to select some slots and overall strategy, but having more interesting gameplay rather then the current “bait the scree and hope they dont gather 100 caps” thats going on, i want to rip and tear as xeno, not play an arguable tank pulling agro while a random runner pulls a marine once every 30 seconds. Xenos would have the tools scattered among the lines, but still be able to pull together, instead of the queen player having all of it on their shoulders.

Removing eggs spawning outside of the queen laying them would make leaving ovi more risky, i dont mind keeping eggsack still available as its pretty weak and niche as is anyway.

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people ask how will queen only on ovi be fun, how is XO fun then for example? queen can impact a lot more from ovi then the entire CIC combined and has way more tools for both command and impact to the game (no OBs do not count that is not exactly CIC doing stuff it is all ground team and they just push the button, having that tool twice in a round by default). Also xenos can deal with the “ungapush” without queen, it is harder, but they have all the tools to deal with it, mainly greater mobility and coordination to attack the force from sides and behind preventing it from advance. But right now all other xenos are basicly drones while queen and the reason why marines are to ungaball in the first place is the queen, and spliting of the force jsut resoults in one of the smaller forces screeched and wiped, making other stuff then deathball invalid 95 % of the times. Reducing queen power dresticly and spreading it to the rest of the hive is definitly way to make the game more fun for EVERYONE (yes both xeno and marine) except possibly the ONE player playing queen (still the command role with more tools to lead then the whole of fucking CIC)

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It’s been a problem I’ve been pointing out for ages: “Queen screech is bad for the game and should go”. I do believe that. I also acknowledge it will cause balance problems; because we’ve relied on it so much it’s become effectively a crutch and the gameplay now revolves heavily on queen screeches and capping.

Will it change? Probably not. Every time it’s brought up there’s resistance because it’s viewed as “nerf xenos” and not “make the game more fun”. This is frankly what happens when you let something overpowered stay locked down in the meta for so long. The game is balanced (relatively), but it’s balanced around a grossly overpowered ability and now if you remove that, the balance falls apart.

I don’t care whether it stays or it goes, but I think the best long term solution (with the goal of increasing fun for everyone) is to get rid of it. The game plays a lot better without screech. The real question to solve is more like, ‘what do you even replace it with?’ - and that’s a question we haven’t had a great answer to.

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This whole discussion has been going on repeat for many years now.

But seems like the current dev team is going to do at least something, and that’s probably the rare change, I, as a self-described CM conservative, is cautiously optimistic about.

Now, as someone who had the years to think\rant\REEE about this too, I think the best way to migrate the Queen’s kit would be making multiple Queen kits and then make it random whatever the Queen rolls with different probabilities. Then whenever there’s a kit that works better than screech, you can make rolling it more common. And then maybe keep Screech in the game with like a 10% chance, just to mine dchat salt now and then.

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I agree alot with this, queen scree is just such a perfect counter to basically everything, it makes balancing against it also very easy, since it is mechanically so powerful you can afford to make nearly anything you want on the marine side and in the same turn get to satisfy alot of what the devs want to create with little restraint, it doesnt matter if you want to add a new cool vehicle, new gun, increase the availability of NVs/previous restricted gear, and have individually stronger marines because the only thing that matters now is how well they coordinate against queen scree, if you dont touch that you are solid.

IMO its a bit lazy, but at the same time i completely understand it, you buy massive realestate of space were marines get to be maincharacter PFC John Marine style and have a lorewise pretty unrealistic winchance against a xeno, all because the queen scree and caps gathered are greatly outweighing it. But the cost of doing this longterm is instead the featurebloat we kind of see now, nearly any and all marines have access to anything they want through req, “restricted” weapons are barely restricted anymore as long as you are quick to the line.

You also end up in a world were any xeno devlopment is very scary to handle, a new caste cant fill a roll too well or it breaks the balance, cant have anyone being too strong, or you get the chance that them together with the queen becomes OP, IMO this is a great reason why we see so little happen on their side of the fence, and why it feels like xenos are only constantly getting nerfed, because they are literally balanced around giving marines large amounts of freedom in new features, changes etc.

And im unsure how this would be changed in a realistic way, sure its not hard to limit marines harder, restricting firepower and making less things flat out available in req would do it, but the backlash would no doubt be very hard.

It is even harder to weaken marines individually, but keep deathball tactics from being meta, my thoughts go to making shooting more skill dependant, before full-auto you would almost need spriteclicks to ensure you had a good damage output, changes like making all guns less accurate if not spriteclicking would be a flat nerf, but still encouraging skill expression, the smartguns could get a damage reduction or a chance to miss entirely when shoot through IFF, rifles could be make innacurate at 1-2 tile distances. Small things would force better positioning and weapon choice and retaining more damage if you are skilled enough.

Basically like many things a big rework is needed, because so many systems integrate and flow into others in something like CM, its completely doable but would come with undoubted negativity from the nerfs, and from having a changed gameplay loop that would feel alot different then current.

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CIC and ovi are two fundamentally different things. Also; you can deploy as XO and that’s also more fun (and impactful) than being in CIC :slightly_smiling_face:

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Tale old as time. Remove Screech and Remove Screech. Remove Screech
Everyone says the same, and even if they give alternative. There’s is other problem. WYCI.

But to be honest. Some xenos already strong enough. If we don’t talk about capping
Zerker rav turns marines in confetti.
Opressor hooks high ping guys(Or just slow ones) into eggs/xeno lines
Boiler still can slow the push
And sometimes you can see masters on others T3’s, who also can do impact. (KV and SCP on crusher charger and etc)

Even T2 doing some impact. But it all mostly going into kill. Not into capping. Because devs tried to nuke xeno ability to solo-cap on some T2. And atleast combat T2’s are not very good in that. (Except warrior)
And of course our proud Backline Psychos on steroids. Who can cap. (Runners like GRUG, Carriers like KYO)

But to be honest. Right now for me it’s big No for the same reason, i said it in BEA topic. Without screech you can kill queen with a M4A3. Because she too slow, and neurospit don’t work on whole screen. Let’s not look at xeno nerf. It gonna nuke a caste, and de-ovi as a thing. Xenos caught few nerfs. Devs gave double burst.
But it feels, like it was just another nerf. Because more xenos started to play less careful. Which is easy to use against em.

Best what we can do. Wait for so-called rework.
Where queen gonna be the boss on battery.
And you know. Maybe if devs want queen to stay on ovi. They shouldn’t nerf Ovi in first place?:smiley: Not to try turn De-ovi into same barely useful shit (For that experience you can just roll CIC)
Just as above was already said. Too much on it. You need to rework concept or find an unique way to buff xeno solo-strength. Or you gonna get No queen rounds because it’s easy to remove and leave the place to stay empty.
Sad but true.

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I have never been fan of queen screech, but honestly if it went away it would be a stomp. Screech is a must when marines are in hive, its the only mechanic that can stop a blob of marines that is 3 times more of then xenos.

cant belive I am saying this but I honestly think its needed. If its so broken, honestly… why are the win/loss exactly where devs want it to be? Can’t really say it is a broken mechanic, annoying perhaps. But what the hell is not annoying to fight against in cm?

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